Missile Dynamics - A discussion

you can still do that, turn into the missile when its close, but only if the missiles below mach 2.5 when you start you maneuver, anything above its either impossible or very hard (i havent be able to do it), its very hard when its above mach 2.0 aswell because if you timing is off by a second youll get hit.

But with patch 1.2.3 itll probably be impossible to dodge it with that maneuver since itll be able to pull 40g

Yes, perhaps then its even more realistic and the dodging theme is mainly dead. What You said would explain why ist only effectively works when the missile is fired at ranges about min. 10nm so some energy has bleed off already or at very short ranges, where ist hasn´t accelareted already to full speed. Have to check that theme on tacview. But time it to the second is no expression there are milliseconds that count. It only works short before You are hit. This obviously only works with labels so I think everybody has his own opinion to this method ...

you dont need labels, you just need to read the RWR and now when to do it.

Hmm I wonder how, but obviously need more experience. I tried couple of times but the signal strength shows the distance only very roughly and by labels I knwo that the maneouver hast to be timed up to +- 0,1 sec. How can You do this via RWR?

Solution to missile discussions.

Since there will always be disputes about how missiles behave compere to each other this could be left to mission builder to decide.

How much a missile would degrade and in what area I don't know. My point is if 100% is Realistic, ER-27 at 0% and Aim-120 at 100%, ER should not become better then aim-120, maybe be as good against countermeasures. It's for ED and their testers to find out what thous parameters should be. When that is sett witch is very hard job, mission makers can decide the level of challenge.

I believe that would be a great solutions to our never ending whining.

How can You do this via RWR?

You can't.

You can only do it with labels on. In a server with labels and externals off there is no such move and attempting it will get you killed if you don't know what you are doing.

Don't get me wrong you can still evade missiles but it takes more than simply turning into one.

Most important thing to understand is that there is no move you can pull off consistently that is going to work.

Each time a missile is evaded is under different circumstances, it's the decisions the pilot makes leading up to the missile being evaded that counts, not turning into it a very specific point in time.

You have to start being very creative with where you position your aircraft to bleed as much energy from the missile as possible from the second it's fired/goes active, only when this has been done can any sort of turn in be made into a missile with any chance of evasion, but even then success is not guaranteed ... it's all down to circumstance, ability and most of the time ... luck!

But if you consistently make good decisions, you make your own luck! ;)

If I remember right there was a missile slider as we have for bird now in FC1, that slider did more damage then good. That could e changed.

The only problem is a missile quality slides is somewhat ridiculous, which is what people want to avoid (I hope).

Maybe adding a missile condition factor (example missiles can be set to perfect maintenance, average, or no maintenance). This would then affect the rate of failure of missile components once they're loaded on to the plane.

But of course, while that would allow for realism, it would not do any good if one side insisted that a certain missile must always be set to terrible condition.

Actually come to think of it, why don't people just make missions where on the 120B is available? It's pretty much the same as R-77.

Advice needed please:

I fire 2 x aim120c at an f15 at 7nm/ 2500 ft, travelling at 90 degrees to my nose (side shot). I'm thinking he's dead meat....He not only turns into my missiles, but somehow dodges them both and at the same time locks and fires upon me, shooting me down.

How did he do it? Orthogonal roll against 2 aim120c's in the NEZ? Is it possible?

"NEZ" does not really mean what it says, first. Second, if you tap off two missiles, the same maneuver (quick notch etc) will probably defeat both missiles since their geometry will be the same.

Double shots are useful if you have reason to suspect missile malfunction (N/A DCS) but does not do anything big about his ability to defeat that attack.

"NEZ" does not really mean what it says, first. Second, if you tap off two missiles, the same maneuver (quick notch etc) will probably defeat both missiles since their geometry will be the same.

 

Double shots are useful if you have reason to suspect missile malfunction (N/A DCS) but does not do anything big about his ability to defeat that attack.

OK, but turning INTO two aim120cs at 7nm and defeating them head-on (while bugging me?).....?

He defeated them before he turned into you probably.

Keep in mind Mandrake that the missiles are still WIP. There are issues effecting the missile performance especially inside the NEZ, these problems are getting worked out but there is no quick fix for this.

So what might work just now to evade missiles might not necessarily work when they are out of beta.

Try not to let it get you down, I know how disappointing situations like this can be especially when your in such a strong position. Next time you find yourself in this position make sure you keep lock on him and when he turns into you... fire again!

Thanks Mav. I Keep on practising and trying some new things with my own edited tutorials. Maybe we see soon an the 494th panters server. WITH Labels ;-)

You mention 90 degree angle:

He dives for two seconds or so, is then in the notch =missiles ditched.

Then he is free to come in and kill you.

Maybe we see soon an the 494th panters server. WITH Labels ;-)

I'll see you there then ;)

Good luck!

S!

But one question still Mav, what do You think about vids like this.

According to my experience there is definetly a way to dodge the 120s short before impact to about 50% chance. In this way I dodged two waves of 120s (3-4 each) of 4 KI (high) F15s severel times shooting down up to three of them. Of course this is very difficult to do in an complex multiplayer environent. How You can evade missilse by bleeding out their energy with various maneouvers ist easy to understand and a way of practice but I try to figure out how far its possible to doge them with high g turn as last chance esp. far within the NEZ.

Greetings!

;1677347'] Next time you find yourself in this position make sure you keep lock on him and when he turns into you... fire again!

Just did exactly this (same opponent too), watched him go into the notch, then fired the second slammer when he was low and slow... boom :thumbup:

Thanks for the help.

Mandrake

But one question still Mav, what do You think about vids like this.

(I just realized afterwords what kind of emotional discussion on the other thread this guy led to ;-))

According to my experience there is definetly a way to dodge the 120s short before impact to about 50% chance. In this way I dodged two waves of 120s (3-4 each) of 4 KI (high) F15s severel times shooting down up to three of them. Of course this is very difficult to do in an complex multiplayer environent. How You can evade missilse by bleeding out their energy with various maneouvers ist easy to understand and a way of practice but I try to figure out how far its possible to doge them with high g turn as last chance esp. far within the NEZ.

 

Greetings!

Its much harder to evade in multiplayer without labels. Waiting for the best moments pretty much eleminates 50% of smart assery like slaloming and barrel rolling multiple missiles.

Yes I think too without labels You have pretty little Chances with this method. With labels though You have some chances with a good timed and flown barrels role. In know this isn't just a simple method to win.

But one question still Mav, what do You think about vids like this.

Alright now this is a bit of a sensitive subject for reasons I won't get into however.... I will attempt to give it a go.

Obviously the first thing you can see is that labels are on, if you remember correctly we talked about the difficulties of doing something like this with the labels OFF not ON sir.

Despite Ragnarok's claim that 'Noobs don't know about this' I can assure you 100% this is not an effective tactic online in FC2 or FC3.

I flew hundreds of hours in FC2 against Ragnarok, his squadron and his squadron's friends... they never did this to me and most of the time I would come out on top. Don't get me wrong they are very good pilots and I was on the receiving end of their love a few times, but this video gives you a false belief that things like this can be done in the game when it can't.

I'm not even sure if that is an un-modded version of FC2, Ragnarok has modded the missile performance in FC2 and has admitted this openly and I suspect this is what the video clip is from.... his modded version of FC2.

The missiles that flew past at less than 10 feet to his aircraft should have exploded at the closes point to his aircraft if they were 'physically' going to miss, therefore taking his aircraft out of the sky.... this does not happen in the video and they simply go straight by.

Long story short....... Trust me..... it can't be done!

Why should you trust me?

Before FC3 came out I was in first place for Multiplayer Air to Air combat last year, no one has ever pulled this move off against me and lived to tell the tale.... so don't get to caught up in the dream!

It is much better to work on making better decisions in your aircraft that try and practice some magical move that will get you out of trouble.....

Remember this young jedi.....

It's your Situation Awareness that saves you in combat... not pulling magic maneuvers in your aircraft!

Now.......... go forth and splash!

Ok, I get the point. I´m still a noob and just read some of the existing evasion threads and keep practising.

R-27ER seemingly has way more range than the AIM-120C in 1.2.3 now, that what it seems like to me anyways.

120C seems like dog poop now in my opinion, I hope Tek is happy.

1.2.3 is not the finished article. I imagine there will be significant changes when FC3 is finalized and as such you cannot draw conclusions with missile performance currently.

R-27ER seemingly has way more range than the AIM-120C in 1.2.3 now, that what it seems like to me anyways.

 

120C seems like dog poop now in my opinion, I hope Tek is happy.

i think tek is ecstatic

everything feels like ace combat right now, just keep spamming missiles, and eventually youll hit him and forget about BVR hits

beta is beta