F15C and ILS

So I have started the FC3 campaign....

The base is covered by a thick opaque fog and there is no way to land without ILS. The problem is that... the ILS is.... terrible.... I spend forever following this f******g cross on the HUD going anywhere, without any consistency with the ATC instructions. When I eventually get in the glidepath it's already too late: the runway appears right in front of me and I cannot land (well I managed to land in mission 1 but it was a miracle).

How should I use the ILS properly?

Cheers...

Well, to use Ils properly you need to first be heading in the right intercept for the glide scope. Ils is not a "homing" beacon to find an airport.. It literaly is just what it says it is Instrument landing system. Therefor, to use Ils you should know which runway it is actuly tuned for.. So if the ILS is say for runway 27 then you need to be heading roughly 270 and at least 10nm away from the touchdown point and in landing config. I.e. not doing 350kts!

Now with the f15 it atleast will give you a countdown tick like a homing beacon but it will not put you on any intercept course.

What I would do is select the ils runway you want and fly towards that airport [havent used ils in the f15 in a while but it might give you a straigt to marker on the top heading marker on the head by a single dash below the tickmarks. Head towards the airport till you're roughly 5nm then you need to turn paralel to the landing direction.. So say again the ils runway is 27[0] and you' south of the airport heading 360 [N] and once you're 5nm from the airport you need to turn right heading 090[e] till you're roughly 15-20nm and above 5,000ft you're going to turn Left heading back 360 and watching the CDI needle untill it starts to move and this point start turning left so you are heading 270 and the cdi needle is aligned or very close..

With this you can start making minor corrections keeping the glide path centered. It should also give you you're glide scope close to if not at that range. at 10nm you should be close to 2500-3000ft

I personally DO not use the huds Glide-path/scope and rely on the mechanical artificial horizon arms.

also, you should be under 250kts at the start and once you hit the outer marker you should be in full landing config and speeds 150-160kts or higher if you're heavy. Don't rush it, Pitch for speed and power for altitude.

Well, you were given some good advice here. I too, shared your frustrations with learning the ILS for the F-15C. So, I started making some training mission with sole intent of practicing the ILS. In 1.5 Open Beta (more airports to use) I would use the ruler to define a Final Approach Fix (FAF) waypoint 10 miles from the approach end of the runway at an altitude of 2500 to 3000 feet above the runway. Ten miles and 3000 feet above the altitude for the approach end of the runway approximates a 3 to 1 glide slope which is optimum. From that point to touch down you want to be fully configured (gear and flaps down) and on speed. Preceding the FAF I build an Initial Approach Fix five miles out from the FAF along the extended center line of the ILs course. In the F-15 I want to be at the IAF at a speed of no more than 220 kts with the flaps down and the gear up at 2500 ft AGL in level flight. This way, as you transition from waypoint nav to ILS nav, you can verify that the distance to the runway and the heading are correct.

The reason for the altitude and configuration between the IAF and the FAF is that you will join the glide slope from below (it will fly down to you) and as you start to see the ILS fly down to you, extend the gear and begin to follow the glide slope. This way only minor thrust adjustments are needed to settle in on your desired final approach speed and sink rate. I do this in Instrument Meteorological Conditions just for the self discipline value.

In closing, after more than 18,000 hours in the airlines and corporate world of aviation. the only time pitch is used to control airspeed is when your thrust is fixed. Meaning that you are at flight idle or at max continues thrust. At all other times thrust controls airspeed and pitch controls elevation. Adjusting one will almost always require an adjustment of the other.

I didn't mean to take liberties with your knowledge of how to fly, but I just saw your posting and thought it a good opportunity to weigh in on how I approach the ILS in the F-15 for the sake of any aviation newbies who may be trying their hand at this awesome simulator.

I sincerely hope this helps. It sure did me

How should I use the ILS properly?

I still struggle with the ILS approach, especially when conditions make it a requirement. There is tons of videos and info out there that can help with the proper stuff. But here are a few of my lessons learned (and if any make some of you cringe as a "bad habit" let me know cause I'll still learning too).

1) 25 and 25: 250kts at 2500' is your "I'm near a runway and want to land" aircraft posture.

2) Once ATC gives me my cleared runway (runway 18 ), I look at my F10 map and the following:

a. Where am I in relation to the runway/airfield.

b. Where do I have to maneuver to intercept heading 180 approx. 10nm away from the runway threshold (do this using the distance tool on the F10 map).

c. Fly to that point, turn to 180, maintaining 25 and 25.

3) Flaps and gear go down

4) The line on the Horizontal Situation Indicator (HSI) should be vertical, and the bars should be up on the Attitude Direction Indicator (ADI). I agree with pr1malr8ge, I don't follow the cross on the HUD, but use is as a check every now-and-then to reference my progress.

5) I fly the approach using the ADI bars as follows:

a. I establish AOA of 20+ on the HUD using stick input, once achieved only throttle to increase/decrease depending on horizontal ADI bar (bar goes up, throttle goes up etc).

b. Left or right slight stick inputs depending on vertical bar on ADI.

6) Also watch Altitude Indicator, at around 500' start looking out the HUD more for the runway. This is more were I start worrying about where the ILS cross is on the HUD.

7) At 200 to 100' you should be visual or very close. Adjust as needed, flare slightly once you cross threshold.

I did a lot of ILS practice during perfect conditions before I stuck a night/fog ILS approach. And I realize now that I'm still horrible at it and am promising myself to run home and practice it some more.

Good luck, and ask more questions if you have them. We are all here to learn and share.

Cheers!

I will make some training missions to practice, Are the Final Approach Fix (FAF) and Initial Approach Fix (IAF) ILS landmarks (i.e. they define of the ILS slope is)? Or basic waypoints?

What I would do is select the ils runway you want and fly towards that airport [havent used ils in the f15 in a while but it might give you a straigt to marker on the top heading marker on the head by a single dash below the tickmarks. Head towards the airport till you're roughly 5nm then you need to turn paralel to the landing direction.. So say again the ils runway is 27[0] and you' south of the airport heading 360 [N] and once you're 5nm from the airport you need to turn right heading 090[e] till you're roughly 15-20nm and above 5,000ft you're going to turn Left heading back 360 and watching the CDI needle untill it starts to move and this point start turning left so you are heading 270 and the cdi needle is aligned or very close..

I will try that. Actually it seems way more reasonable to intersect the runway direction and proceed with final turn according the CDI needle rather than dogfighting with a cross on the HUD

Many thanks

3) Flaps and gear go down

This will fail the ILS approach. ILS approach requires your gear and flaps down before you react the ILS fix point. This may be the reason for all your frustration.

I will make some training missions to practice, Are the Final Approach Fix (FAF) and Initial Approach Fix (IAF) ILS landmarks (i.e. they define of the ILS slope is)? Or basic waypoints?

 

 

 

I will try that. Actually it seems way more reasonable to intersect the runway direction and proceed with final turn according the CDI needle rather than dogfighting with a cross on the HUD

 

Many thanks

Set up a Touch-n-Go mission so you get used to the pattern, either right or left, your choice and the settings you need. If you can go TNG's easily the touch down is a breeze, It also helps you learn how to spot the different points you are at during an approach and makes it easier when you RTB from an odd angel. You soon find yourself just dropping into the pattern and following that into the runway. Or the ILS to the runway, depending on the weather.

In closing, after more than 18,000 hours in the airlines and corporate world of aviation. the only time pitch is used to control airspeed is when your thrust is fixed. Meaning that you are at flight idle or at max continues thrust. At all other times thrust controls airspeed and pitch controls elevation. Adjusting one will almost always require an adjustment of the other.

Not sure you're getting my drift on what I meant.. I've been taught and have always on final used pitch to control airspeed and throttle for "altitude" really I mean sink rate. While I have never flown anything bigger then an Piper Seminole [twin training] although I have "flown" an Eclipse 500 but it was in the second seat and I did not take off nor land. It still has always been that criteria for final approach. Now, I'm thinking more and more on what you're saying and I believe you're thinking I'm talking about say dropping from cruise to approach speeds etc. I'm not talking about that I'm talking about once you're setup for approach and are in landing config and speeds to maintain a 3* [or what ever is needed for that runway] glidepath and a desirable sink rate.

Pete, would you be kind enough to share your ILS mission file? That would be fantastic...

I still struggle a lot to find the final turn point with the needle. Besides I feel my flight control are not stable at all. It would be to easy to blame the joystick but I have never experienced that on a flight simulator before. I wonder if I need to adjust something right...

Pete, would you be kind enough to share your ILS mission file? That would be fantastic...

 

I still struggle a lot to find the final turn point with the needle. Besides I feel my flight control are not stable at all. It would be to easy to blame the joystick but I have never experienced that on a flight simulator before. I wonder if I need to adjust something right...

You might want to try and slow your self down even more.. Try doing the turn at 200-220kts or slower. I suggest doing this in VFR no wind conditions until you get the hang of it. then start adding a wind component. Keep in mind also that with a wind compent you're going to need to add wind correction I.E. Crabbing to keep on course. With that you could have the nose pointed 1 to 20+* off of the runway heading.

JFI the f15 is not a 0/0 capable IFR platform. Minimums are probably 500 maybe 300ft. Same thing with the A10. with that being said, if you're below 300ft AGL and cannot see ground, you should be diverting anyways.

As I said you should work on doing this in ABSOLUTE ideal conditions first to get the feel of it, then add cross wind, and finaly start adding IMC

Not sure you're getting my drift on what I meant.. I've been taught and have always on final used pitch to control airspeed and throttle for "altitude" really I mean sink rate. While I have never flown anything bigger then an Piper Seminole [twin training] although I have "flown" an Eclipse 500 but it was in the second seat and I did not take off nor land. It still has always been that criteria for final approach. Now, I'm thinking more and more on what you're saying and I believe you're thinking I'm talking about say dropping from cruise to approach speeds etc. I'm not talking about that I'm talking about once you're setup for approach and are in landing config and speeds to maintain a 3* [or what ever is needed for that runway] glidepath and a desirable sink rate.

It's a little different for larger or heavier aircraft. I was taught the same flying light GA, but it's the opposite for anything RJ size or larger.

It's a little different for larger or heavier aircraft. I was taught the same flying light GA, but it's the opposite for anything RJ size or larger.

I spoke with my cousin an Ex f15 pilot and now he flies for fedEx flying the 767. While I originally typed that I call BS on this I read it again and seen you said "little different" While yes it is a little bit different as you have a bit more ability to "push" it down and you're flaring 50' agl and can work with a bit more sink rate when compared to a G/A plane but in the basic terms it is exactly the same principal. The only real difference in G/A vs Mil/Airlines is the ability to get down from cruise alt to aproch alt quicker due to cabin pressurization and for lack of shock cooling.

here is his reply via txt to me.

Again I'm talking about arresting sink rate and declination in speed. We are not talking about climbing or any massive speed changes and are already "captured" on the glide path. If anything is "drasticly" needed you best balk and G/A

I spoke with my cousin an Ex f15 pilot and now he flies for fedEx flying the 767. While I originally typed that I call BS on this I read it again and seen you said "little different" While yes it is a little bit different as you have a bit more ability to "push" it down and you're flaring 50' agl and can work with a bit more sink rate when compared to a G/A plane but in the basic terms it is exactly the same principal. The only real difference in G/A vs Mil/Airlines is the ability to get down from cruise alt to aproch alt quicker due to cabin pressurization and for lack of shock cooling.

here is his reply via txt to me.

 

Again I'm talking about arresting sink rate and declination in speed. We are not talking about climbing or any massive speed changes and are already "captured" on the glide path. If anything is "drasticly" needed you best balk and G/A

You can call BS all you want. I'm not going to argue w/you because you have your cousin. But so you can have the facts, I fly the same airplanes at AA my friend. Got a few T-shirts.

Having bought the Eagle yesterday, I'm trying pull of perfect landings, and I have a few questions too:

ILS: The ILS display is a little weird. It's not 2 separate needles on the HUD but a little cross. How does that work? Does it show where I am compared to the glideslope? Sometimes if shows weird things...

Air brake: Should they be open on final or not? I've seen some videos of real F-15s landing, and they opened them right after touchdown.

Speed: I try to maintain 21-22 units of AoA, but the ASI still shows more than 150 knots...isn't that too fast? Or maybe I'm just used to F-14s?

Flaring: How? I pull back on the stick, but not too much so that the exhaust pipes don't crash into the ground. It doesn't seem to break the rate of decent though...

Thanks!

Air is a gas and thus a compressable medium. When you intiate the flare maneuver pressure needs to build up to the point it carries or in this case slow the aircraft down. Usually it takes around 1 to 2 seconds until flare is at maximum effect. Timing is everything as the effect degenerates quickly as soon as it reaches it's peak.

Once established localiser (vertical bar) and glideslope is intercepted. I use power to maintain AOA and therefore the glideslope. The stick I use for localizer corretions, i.e. left or right.

So throttles to stay on glideslope. Stick to stay on localiser (runway centre line).

Best fun, short of becoming an ace in combat!!:pilotfly:

Regards

David

San A, I have been away from the sim for a bit. I leave for recurrent training tomorrow and will be back next week when I will pm you with some discussion on the ILS if you like. Let me know.

Regards P...Pete

ADI ILS Directors

Hey, Fellas.

I was flying a night mission and got hit, losing the HUD, Radar, TEWS, etc. Foggy night, so was relying on the two yellow ADI director bars when I noticed that the cockpit lighting system does not illuminate them enough to be functional. Bug?

Thanks

I spoke with my cousin an Ex f15 pilot and now he flies for fedEx flying the 767. While I originally typed that I call BS on this I read it again and seen you said "little different" While yes it is a little bit different as you have a bit more ability to "push" it down and you're flaring 50' agl and can work with a bit more sink rate when compared to a G/A plane but in the basic terms it is exactly the same principal. The only real difference in G/A vs Mil/Airlines is the ability to get down from cruise alt to aproch alt quicker due to cabin pressurization and for lack of shock cooling.

here is his reply via txt to me.

 

Again I'm talking about arresting sink rate and declination in speed. We are not talking about climbing or any massive speed changes and are already "captured" on the glide path. If anything is "drasticly" needed you best balk and G/A

Not to jump in, but strikeeagle is right... That's more of a technic for lighter planes. It's all airframe specific, but most jets use power for airspeed and pitch for altitude. That said, in real life it's more blended power and pitch as needed. No landings ever the same.

San A, I have been away from the sim for a bit. I leave for recurrent training tomorrow and will be back next week when I will pm you with some discussion on the ILS if you like. Let me know.

Regards P...Pete

Pete, what are you flying?

Not to jump in, but strikeeagle is right... That's more of a technic for lighter planes. It's all airframe specific, but most jets use power for airspeed and pitch for altitude. That said, in real life it's more blended power and pitch as needed. No landings ever the same.

Everyone is taught to reverse their controls for a landing, ie. throttle for angle etc as mentioned earlier. Absolutely everyone. While you might not be using it strictly as that by the time you progress to a real aircraft (be it combat or transport) every single pilot without fail will have at least heard of the concept "throttle for angle stick for speed".

Anyway if you can trust yourself not to cheat just take an aircraft on any blank scenario and practice using the ils for repeated touch and gos. If you can't trust yourself then you'll need to do a little more work to set up a reduced visibility situation and it might take a little more work because you cant visually see how it compares to a high visibility landing but at least you will feel more comfortable in the real situation. Or just cover the top half of your screen and/or wear a hat so you can see your instruments but cant see the outside.

Finally there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. An ils landing isn't a landing solely using instruments. An ils landing is a landing with REDUCED visibility (rather than no visibility) whereby you use instrumentation to stay on the glide slope and visually land when close to the runway (about 200m+ ish). You do not land with instruments alone. It might also help to remember that nobody is forcing you to land on that attempt, if you go around 5 times for a successful landing you've still done better than the person splat in the middle of the runway.

Everyone is taught to reverse their controls for a landing, ie. throttle for angle etc as mentioned earlier. Absolutely everyone. While you might not be using it strictly as that by the time you progress to a real aircraft (be it combat or transport) every single pilot without fail will have at least heard of the concept "throttle for angle stick for speed".

 

Anyway if you can trust yourself not to cheat just take an aircraft on any blank scenario and practice using the ils for repeated touch and gos. If you can't trust yourself then you'll need to do a little more work to set up a reduced visibility situation and it might take a little more work because you cant visually see how it compares to a high visibility landing but at least you will feel more comfortable in the real situation. Or just cover the top half of your screen and/or wear a hat so you can see your instruments but cant see the outside.

 

Finally there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. An ils landing isn't a landing solely using instruments. An ils landing is a landing with REDUCED visibility (rather than no visibility) whereby you use instrumentation to stay on the glide slope and visually land when close to the runway (about 200m+ ish). You do not land with instruments alone. It might also help to remember that nobody is forcing you to land on that attempt, if you go around 5 times for a successful landing you've still done better than the person splat in the middle of the runway.

I've heard of it of course... But I do fly real planes for a living, and also teach in them. That isn't something I would recommend in the real jet.. It's more like, you are slow - add power. You are low, pitch up.

My landings started to be succesful when I started to ignore ILS. It's a good marker of general direction but I noticed that if I concentrate more on maintaining airspeed, everything else sorts itself out. :joystick:

I've heard of it of course... But I do fly real planes for a living, and also teach in them. That isn't something I would recommend in the real jet.. It's more like, you are slow - add power. You are low, pitch up.

This. They keep brining up an old method that was used in small, light utility aircraft like 172's. It isn't taught anymore and people really got confused with it, as is seen in here with everyone bringing it up.

This. They keep brining up an old method that was used in small, light utility aircraft like 172's. It isn't taught anymore and people really got confused with it, as is seen in here with everyone bringing it up.

Exactly .

On another note, I'm pretty new to DCS... Is there any way to tune Nav / ILS freqs in the F-15? I'm guessing no since the cockpit isn't clickable?