Nealius Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Has anyone else's carrier trap "flow" been disturbed since the 15AUG update? Keeping my pre-update techniques that used to give me consistent 3 and 4 wires is now giving me consistent bolters post-update. Previously, the Hornet had a tendency to sink when in the ground-effect region, and there was some discussion here about ground effect values being reversed. I would experience this sinking over the deck, so I kept power up all the way to touchdown. Keeping the same technique now, I have a good ball all the way from 0.5nm down to the wires, and as my nose crosses the wires the ball suddenly flies up and I bolter. Some people tell me it's the "burble," but there's no official word on if burble is even modeled. If it were modeled, I understand the burble to be a downdraft that's aft of the ship. From a US Navy Academy research paper: The burble causes planes to drop slightly, thus requiring a small amount of power to be temporarily added to maintain the glide slope though this region. So if there were burble, I should be experiencing an increase in sink rate just aft of the ship. According to the ball, I'm not, which leads me to believe burble is not modeled. So now I'm back to the idea that some kind of ground effect is pushing my plane back up into the air as I cross the deck. Has anyone else experienced the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory205 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 It’s a lift followed by a sink in real life, strength depends on axial or winds down the angle, and the strength of the natural wind. Enterprise due to the shape of the island had the worst turbulence as well. Haven’t flown the new build so no feedback there. Viewpoints are my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majapahit Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Happened to me, high wind, ballooning over the deck. Only happens infrequently. Ah well. (Perhaps its a freak turbulence modelling) | VR goggles | Autopilot panel | Headtracker | TM HOTAS | G920 HOTAS | MS FFB 2 | Throttle Quadrants | 8600K | GTX 1080 | 64GB RAM| Win 10 x64 | Voicerecognition | 50" UHD TV monitor | 40" 1080p TV monitor | 2x 24" 1080p side monitors | 24" 1080p touchscreen | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doum76 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) On my side i haven't experience this yet, or noticed it, on a 27 kts moving Carrier + 3-4 kts wind deck heading and 2-3 turbulence settings. But to be honest, since i don't know nothing about real Hornet flight characteristic, when something chances on a patch, i simply adjust my flying to adjsut the new changes, as it happens now with nose wheel drag and some changes on last patch. Edited August 19, 2018 by Doum76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laithar Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Yes, something has changed. I now struggle to keep the nose down on full mil power if I bolter and never need afterburner off the deck. It's the same with takeoff from the cats...I trim to 15 and only use half flaps. I have to lift the gear and raise the flaps as soon as I leave the deck otherwise I'm hitting 30-40 degrees quite rapidly. The nose dips a little without flaps but until the flight control system kicks in at 240-250 knots, I'm fighting it. Same after the break for recovery. If my wings are straight and level at 250 knots and I drop the gear and flaps, my attempts at staying at 600 ft are impossible as I push the stick forward to fight the nose rising to between 800 - 1000 ft. I don't see any of that in the carrier break videos on youtube. Anticipating the nose dropping and applying throttle isn't any easier but once the correct AoA is achieved, the rest of the landing is a doddle. Trouble is, by the time I've got the correct AoA, the carrier is way into the distance and I'm long in the groove. It wasn't perfect before the update but my carrier landings were okay. Now it seems like a different beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 I got back into the flow of things, but I've found that where I had to maintain power to touchdown previously, I have to cut power before touchdown now. Something's definitely changed. My carrier speed, wind direction/speed, and turbulence settings haven't been altered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw24 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Yes, something has changed. I now struggle to keep the nose down on full mil power if I bolter and never need afterburner off the deck. It's the same with takeoff from the cats...I trim to 15 and only use half flaps. I have to lift the gear and raise the flaps as soon as I leave the deck otherwise I'm hitting 30-40 degrees quite rapidly. The nose dips a little without flaps but until the flight control system kicks in at 240-250 knots, I'm fighting it. Same after the break for recovery. If my wings are straight and level at 250 knots and I drop the gear and flaps, my attempts at staying at 600 ft are impossible as I push the stick forward to fight the nose rising to between 800 - 1000 ft. I don't see any of that in the carrier break videos on youtube. Anticipating the nose dropping and applying throttle isn't any easier but once the correct AoA is achieved, the rest of the landing is a doddle. Trouble is, by the time I've got the correct AoA, the carrier is way into the distance and I'm long in the groove. It wasn't perfect before the update but my carrier landings were okay. Now it seems like a different beast. Same here especially, with attempting to get AOA/on speed it's a fight to maintain altitude. Spoiler: MSI Z790 Carbon WIFI, i9 14900KF, 64GB DDR4, MSI RTX 4090, Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle, VKB Gunfighter Ultimate MCG Pro w/200mm Extension, Winwing Orion Rudder Pedals W/damper, UTC MK II Pro, Virpil TCS Plus Collective, Dell AW3418DW Gsync monitor, 970 Pro M2 1TB (for DCS), Playseat Air Force Seat, KW-980 Jetseat, Vaicom Pro, 3X TM Cougar with Lilliput 8" screens. Tek Creations panels and controllers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkroyale048 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 They did say they tweaked the FM a bit on this update. To reflect more the IRL behaviour as IRL pilots gave feedback about. It did screw my practice a bit. But if the Hornet pilot says this closely reflect IRL then I'll just have to adjust to it. Irregular streamer: http://www.twitch.tv/arkroyale048/profile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 Same here especially, with attempting to get AOA/on speed it's a fight to maintain altitude. That's another thing as well. Between rolling out on downwind and starting the 180 turn, there's too much lift and not enough time to descend from 800' to 600'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_ Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Has anyone else's carrier trap "flow" been disturbed since the 15AUG update? Keeping my pre-update techniques that used to give me consistent 3 and 4 wires is now giving me consistent bolters post-update. The gear drag modelling was too high and is now much closer to reality. This translates to less power required to maintain speed or AoA. It also means that throttle response will feel higher as a small increase in power now equals better acceleration. Conversely however, a decrease in power equals slower deceleration. I've been flying both gear drag models for a while and the way it is now certainly feels easier and more forgiving to me. It won't take too long for players to adjust to the throttle adjustments I don't think. As for trapping, I don't notice any changes at all. I am literally flying the Hornet and the ball on AOA all the way to touchdown. I don't feel the need to reduce or increase power at all once over the boat. carrier island burble and wind effects are not modelled but ground effect is. A bug regarding ground effect over the boat has been logged but as far as I can see has not been changed. Maybe you could attach a .trk file and maybe I can see what you are doing? That's another thing as well. Between rolling out on downwind and starting the 180 turn, there's too much lift and not enough time to descend from 800' to 600'. It depends when you start your break and how you execute it. If its 2-4 seconds past the bow then there isn't much time but it is possible. Personally I would let the nose drop whilst in the turn and 20 degrees before reciprocal BRC as its much smoother and easier (no hard and fast rules on this in boat ops). If you are going for a slick continuous break without a roll out then you simply start your initial 90 high and increase your rate of descent to arrive at the 90 at around the correct altitude and at the start of the groove at the right altitude e.g...….. The 'numbers' I see mentioned help you to arrive at the start of the groove at the correct height, distance and AoA. I wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers but fly the aircraft as needed to arrive at the groove correctly. e.g. Break too tight = keep higher AoA and higher AOB through first 90, sort out AoA in final 90. i7-7700K : 16Gb DDR4 2800 Mhz : Asus Mobo : 2TB HDD : Intel 520 SSD 240gb : RTX 2080ti: Win10 64pro : Dx10 : TrackiR4 : TM Warthog : ASUS ROG SWIFT PG348Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I think they modified the drag values for the landing gear, much less drag and now much less power required in power approach mode. I too found myself stable on the ball until the short strokes, then going high and boltering at the last minute. After a couple hours of circuits at the boat, I’ve mostly retrained myself for the new FM. Until it changes again, anyway lol... Edit: sniped by Druid’s far more comprehensive reply... Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 Well that explains everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcrusty Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) No ballooning here. Rollout from break required a bit more forward stick before trimming to on-speed. I did find myself seesawing a bit more with my left hand to average out engine response. I did few touch and go's before the trap and each time when flying off the deck in mil power the nose would shoot up to 15 then 20 deg. shortly after in spite of me chopping power to idle momentarily (as a test:smilewink:) so... if I just back off on power about 1/3 of throttle travel on climb-out to 600 ft. I have to push the stick forward significantly to keep the nose at 10 or 12 deg. Couple of times I saw the VV way above the W and it didn't want to come down, lol. I like the current UA flight modelling between 50 kts and 380 ~ 400. Above that... I would probably have a few questions... (there is another thread on the subject) Edited August 19, 2018 by Gripes323 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I'm trapping 3 or 4 wire now consistently. Nobody change a damm thing. Fighter Pilot Podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I too found myself stable on the ball until the short strokes, then going high and boltering at the last minute. Same here. The funny thing is that many said here that before it was according to the real F-18C, "that the real one was that way", now they say that this FM is according to the real thing ... Until it changes again, anyway lol... Exactly! LOL _________________________________ Aorus Z390 Extreme MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.0 GHz | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra | 32 GB G Skill Trident Z 3600 MHz CL14 DDR4 Ram | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler | Corsair TX 850M PS | Samsung 970 Evo Plus M.2 NVMe SSD 1TB |TMWH Hotas with VPC WarBRD Base| Corsair Gamer 570x Crystal Case | HP Reverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack McCoy Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I've notice this ballooning after cat shot. With the previous flight model, I cut to idle and put full flaps down in order not to go higher than 600'R when going back to downwind for some pattern work. After the patch, I really need to push the nose down so I don't zoom up to 1000'. i7-7700K@4.8GHz, 16Gb-3200, GTX-1080Ti-Strix-11Gb, Maximus IX Hero, Oculus Rift, Thrustmaster Warthog+F/A-18C, Logitech G940 Pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StandingCow Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Well.. this explains a lot, gonna take a bit to change habits. 5900X - 32 GB 3600 RAM - 1080TI My Twitch Channel ~Moo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 Yeah I'm having a hard time as well. When rolling out of the 180 I cut power and still balloon a bit before I can settle into a steady approach. Response to throttle adjustments are really sensitive now too. Lots of 2 and 4 wires so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound11 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I've been experiencing the violent pitch up on bolter and fighting the nose down when getting on speed downwind both before and after the update. something definitely feels off there. Like, "oh if I let my throttle down for split second in my approach turn I'm in the drink, but as soon as my gear touches non-skid, I'm a rocket?" It's like flaps have the same authority of my elevators all of a sudden as soon as the weight comes back off wheels. But it has been that way through all the updates, so not sure what's going on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistofZen Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Has anyone else's carrier trap "flow" been disturbed since the 15AUG update? Keeping my pre-update techniques that used to give me consistent 3 and 4 wires is now giving me consistent bolters post-update. Previously, the Hornet had a tendency to sink when in the ground-effect region, and there was some discussion here about ground effect values being reversed. I would experience this sinking over the deck, so I kept power up all the way to touchdown. Keeping the same technique now, I have a good ball all the way from 0.5nm down to the wires, and as my nose crosses the wires the ball suddenly flies up and I bolter. Some people tell me it's the "burble," but there's no official word on if burble is even modeled. If it were modeled, I understand the burble to be a downdraft that's aft of the ship. From a US Navy Academy research paper: So if there were burble, I should be experiencing an increase in sink rate just aft of the ship. According to the ball, I'm not, which leads me to believe burble is not modeled. So now I'm back to the idea that some kind of ground effect is pushing my plane back up into the air as I cross the deck. Has anyone else experienced the same? Yes, yes and yes. I have experienced the same thin you described here. The ball is good, AOA on spot...etc. Am I special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 Hardest thing so far is getting on-speed after the break. I break 1nm past the bow and barely get trimmed on-speed by the time I'm abeam. This is with throttle at idle all the way from the break to abeam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laithar Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 What would you expect the plane to do if you took off from the cat with no flaps set? Try it! My plane starts a vertical climb and goes into a loop. As I try to rescue her by pushing the stick fully forward, I don't have full control. I try pushing the stick forward to stop her from climbing but she's stubborn. The best option for me is to roll her at the top of the climb and by this time she's lost speed so takes a dive. I could imagine this would be quite frightening if this happened IRL. I realise most of this happens before the flight control system actually takes control but if I manage to get her above 250 knots, I still have to fight the stick. It's not until I come below 250 knots, drop the flaps, raise them again and take her above 250 knots again...that I gain full control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron886 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 What would you expect the plane to do if you took off from the cat with no flaps set? Try it! My plane starts a vertical climb and goes into a loop. As I try to rescue her by pushing the stick fully forward, I don't have full control. I try pushing the stick forward to stop her from climbing but she's stubborn. The best option for me is to roll her at the top of the climb and by this time she's lost speed so takes a dive. I could imagine this would be quite frightening if this happened IRL. I realise most of this happens before the flight control system actually takes control but if I manage to get her above 250 knots, I still have to fight the stick. It's not until I come below 250 knots, drop the flaps, raise them again and take her above 250 knots again...that I gain full control. That one has nothing to do with the cat... it's a repeatable bug with a flaps AUTO takeoff. If you cycle the flaps below 250, the pitch wind-up will stop. Definitely an error in the code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHSStarKiller Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I've noticed the difference, before the update trimmed to 10 degrees maintaining 144kts would keep me where I need to be all the way in, now my needles are aligned until I get the ball, it's centered and still now overshoot. I have noticed the speeds decrease a lot more as the weight goes down a lot more now so my landing speed has been 138-141kts give or take trimmed to 9 now ASUS ROG Strix Helios Case - ASUS AM4 ROG Strix X-570E MB - AMD Ryzen 5 3600 - 64 GB DDR4 3200 G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series - ASUS DualGeForce GTX 1070 - SSD 2x 1TB - HDD 10 TB - Windows 10 Home - Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS - Thrustmaster TPR Pedels - TrackIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 That one has nothing to do with the cat... it's a repeatable bug with a flaps AUTO takeoff. If you cycle the flaps below 250, the pitch wind-up will stop. Definitely an error in the code. That's user error. You don't take off with flaps AUTO. Flaps HALF, whether taking off from ground or cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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