Having a hard time with the radar

What are you babbling about, the Mirage has the most arcade instant lock in DCS.

Seems the Hornet wip radar issues gives a pitiful excuse for peeps to rag on FC.

What I meant is that the Mirage radar for example has more than an "Radar ON/OFF" key for instance and it actually needs a warmup.

That it is realistic or not is not for me to decide (as I said multiple times I am no radar expert).

So I "babble" about my perspective and how it feels for me... Plain and simple.

Thanks for the warm and heartfelt words.

What I meant is that the Mirage radar for example has more than an "Radar ON/OFF" key for instance and it actually needs a warmup.

That it is realistic or not is not for me to decide (as I said multiple times I am no radar expert).

 

So I "babble" about my perspective and how it feels for me... Plain and simple.

I'm sorry for the opening was a bit uncalled for.

It irks me people call FC radar arcade yet operate the Mirage and BMS radar with similar efficiency and controls. Now along comes delayed locks and drop locks from pulling g and all of a sudden FC is arcade but other radar simulations get a free because muh clicky pits.

Having the same problems and not believing it all to be fully realistic but rather not yet honed out WIP.

What kills it most for me is the inability of current STT to keep lock while maneuvering:

F-Pole jousting is impossible, even when trying to maneuver smoothly, the lock (and Sparrow) will always be lost way prior to reaching gimbal limits.

There's STT currently??? I see no indicator showing that and a second depress of the TDC sensor does not put it into STT....so what gives?

I'm sorry for the opening was a bit uncalled for.

It irks me people call FC radar arcade yet operate the Mirage and BMS radar with similar efficiency and controls. Now along comes delayed locks and drop locks from pulling g and all of a sudden FC is arcade but other radar simulations get a free because muh clicky pits.

FC radar code has been designed to simulate Su-27 & MiG-29 radar and is doing it pretty fine.

The only western radar (F-15C) seems to be half of what it should be.

And M-2000C radar, how imperfect it might be, had to break some new grounds, and Hornet radar is probably going through the same...

I thought about posting a new thread, but this seems to already address my concerns.

I'm too finding the F18 radar way "different". I'm used to the Mirage and SU-27; and apart from the radar taking longer to lock-on and being harder to master, which is perfectly fine, I'm having a few more issues with it.

The biggest one being...it's almost impossible to crank left/right while maintaining lock. Once I have a lock, if I (slowly) maneuver the aircraft to either side, as soon as the target box gets out of the HUD and starts flashing, the lock is lost within a few seconds; even if the beam is way far from it's maximum azimut and I try to roll back to get the box inside the HUD.

This behavior seems to be more pronounced against head-on BVR enemies; i.e. it does not happen when locking a cold friendly aircraft, you can crank left/right and keep it locked near the azimut limit, then roll back in and still get the target box back in the HUD.

Maybe it's 100% real and that's the way it is...or maybe it's just WIP (which I hope is the case, because technically, it IS WIP :).

Anyone else experiencing this same cranking/lost-lock thing? Maybe it's just me...

Yes. Radar loses lock during hard maneuvers. I have no idea whether it should work like that.

Well....yeah I kind of expect that, or can understand that might happen. The point is I'm not making hard maneuvers. I said crank, yes. but after seeing what happened I tried the same just turing gently to one side. Same effect.

EDIT: mmm...after messing around a bit more, it might be just me. Seems radar beaming is *real* in the Hornet; or so it seems. It's way way more sensible and prone to loose lock depending on how you "crank" in relation with the bandit; it certainly didn't happened with the FC3 aircraft.

Well....yeah I kind of expect that, or can understand that might happen. The point is I'm not making hard maneuvers. I said crank, yes. but after seeing what happened I tried the same just turing gently to one side. Same effect.

 

EDIT: mmm...after messing around a bit more, it might be just me. Seems radar beaming is *real* in the Hornet; or so it seems. It's way way more sensible and prone to loose lock depending on how you "crank" in relation with the bandit; it certainly didn't happened with the FC3 aircraft.

The M-2000C had the issue for some times, but the bug was corrected. I would be surprised if it was a real behaviour of APG-73. It’s probably a bug waiting to be corrected.

The “beaming” is the target maneuvering to fly perpendicular to your radar beam.

You turning left or right has no effect on that.

The only thing you can do to defeat this maneuver is to dive to keep the target above the horizon.

Since my last post here i got some time to learn the hornets radar. it took 1 week till i got the first mp bvr kill. now my impressions:

first, the hornets radar seems to be the most powerfull and reliable in rws mode in dcs. i never was surprised by enemies within 40-60 miles and could even grt sst locks at 80 miles and more.

The radar can be swept in stt mode with the tdc in all directions. as soon as the radar line is stable a target is found and will be locked......its like fishing and a big advantage to other radars IMO.

Bugs:

the radar is not stabilized during the locking process. a lock can only be aquired when no pitch or roll movement is performed.

in stt mode with a locked target the radar can only compensate small angular velocities for roll movements. too hard rolls will sweep the beam away from the target. vertical angular velocities seem to be not a problem. fast rolling maneuvers can only be performed when pointing the plane directly on the target. ACM modes also suffers from the missing stabilization. using VAM and WAM results in instant losses after lock because dogfight= movements...boresight is ok as the target is visible and can be kept in the BS circle.

TLdr: during lock process the radar has no stabilization resulting in losing or not locking targets with relative ang. velocity. in stt mode only slow roll movements can be corrected, whereas pitch correction is ok.

Nice explanation. That stabilization thing makes a lot of sense as to what I might be experiencing.

It only can get better then. Cool :)

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Thanks. I think you summed it up nicely. This has been my experience as well. I think to some degree this is realistic in that by rolling too quickly, you could exceed the ability of the servos or whatever to reposition the radar antenna. It's probably just a bit too aggressive in modeling this at the moment, as it is largely useless for the purposes of employing the aim-7 in combat at the moment. Unless you are up against another f/a-18 or you sneak up on someone, they are going to have a much easier time of it in pretty much any other modern fighter.

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You can detect and lock in STT fighters at 80Nm ?

What type of fighters ?

Sorry to spoil and no offence - but obviously you guys didn't read the last pages of this thread. The current radar behavior and performance is in many aspects not realistic. The "stt fishing" you describe here is completely unrealistic and the real radar keeps a stable lock in stt no matter how you yank the jet around (within gimbal limits) etc.

Check these pages and the bug section for details on current problems. ACM mode bugs have also been pointed out there.

Also you can't defeat a notch (or "beam" as called here...) by putting the target above the horizon.

It's important to understand the AA radar is still heavily WIP. Detection, maintaining an L&S, and time to lock will be adjusted and improved. This is a high priority.

everyone here knows that. thats why we are discussing it. and now we also know what the devs noticed it and that the radar is in good hands to be improved. thank you for the reply!

Sorry to spoil and no offence - but obviously you guys didn't read the last pages of this thread. The current radar behavior and performance is in many aspects not realistic. The "stt fishing" you describe here is completely unrealistic and the real radar keeps a stable lock in stt no matter how you yank the jet around (within gimbal limits) etc.

 

Check these pages and the bug section for details on current problems. ACM mode bugs have also been pointed out there.

 

Also you can't defeat a notch (or "beam" as called here...) by putting the target above the horizon.

I dunno, I have extensive experience with the APG-63v0/v1/v3 real-world, and hunting in "mini-raster" around a vanished radar contact often results in the radar picking up a lock. STT is just that, single-target-track. Prior to actually getting STT, mini-raster is commanded when you press the TDC. When the 63 is in mini-raster, you can move it around.

I assume (but don't know for sure) that the 73 works the same....

Shack on the gimbals during maneuvering tho, never saw own-ship maneuvers break the lock unless it was gimbals in azimuth from an overly aggressive crank.

I dunno, I have extensive experience with the APG-63v0/v1/v3 real-world, and hunting in "mini-raster" around a vanished radar contact often results in the radar picking up a lock. STT is just that, single-target-track. Prior to actually getting STT, mini-raster is commanded when you press the TDC. When the 63 is in mini-raster, you can move it around.

 

I assume (but don't know for sure) that the 73 works the same....

 

Shack on the gimbals during maneuvering tho, never saw own-ship maneuvers break the lock unless it was gimbals in azimuth from an overly aggressive crank.

And what about a beaming target ? Does it loose lock in look up situation ?

Since my last post here i got some time to learn the hornets radar. it took 1 week till i got the first mp bvr kill. now my impressions:

first, the hornets radar seems to be the most powerfull and reliable in rws mode in dcs. i never was surprised by enemies within 40-60 miles and could even grt sst locks at 80 miles and more.

The radar can be swept in stt mode with the tdc in all directions. as soon as the radar line is stable a target is found and will be locked......its like fishing and a big advantage to other radars IMO.

Bugs:

the radar is not stabilized during the locking process. a lock can only be aquired when no pitch or roll movement is performed.

in stt mode with a locked target the radar can only compensate small angular velocities for roll movements. too hard rolls will sweep the beam away from the target. vertical angular velocities seem to be not a problem. fast rolling maneuvers can only be performed when pointing the plane directly on the target. ACM modes also suffers from the missing stabilization. using VAM and WAM results in instant losses after lock because dogfight= movements...boresight is ok as the target is visible and can be kept in the BS circle.

 

TLdr: during lock process the radar has no stabilization resulting in losing or not locking targets with relative ang. velocity. in stt mode only slow roll movements can be corrected, whereas pitch correction is ok.

What U mean for "stabilized" ?

You can detect and lock in STT fighters at 80Nm ?

What type of fighters ?

I can lock a Mig-29A at 70-71Nm in the FA-18C.

What U mean for "stabilized" ?

Countering all Pitch, roll and bank movements of th plane.

I guess problem right now is that we only have RWS and that can loose track of a target quite easily.

If we can switch back and forth between the different radar modes (RWS/TWS/STT) after a lock it should get better I hope.

@sinnerman49: mini-raster is different than what was mentioned here (moving the tdc around in stt) - it happens prior stt... ;-)

And what about a beaming target ? Does it loose lock in look up situation ?

the APG-63v0 (Mech scanned) will SOMETIMES lose lock on beaming targets, the look angle (up/down) doesn't really have much NOTICEABLE impact on it, unless the bandit is super low to the ground.

The V1 and V3 are much better at holding locks.

Getting into a perfect beam (with 0 Vc) is pretty difficult to do, and and closure positive or negative will help the radar.

The Medium Pulse Repetition Frequency (MPRF) does much better with maneuvering targets vs High PRF which is much better with hot/cold aspect targets that generate some Vc (And allow for Doppler range) - hence why these Radars will alternate HPRF and MPRF signals during a frame (Full bar count). This also explains why you could see a contact 1 second, and then it disappears on the next bar.

@sinnerman49: mini-raster is different than what was mentioned here (moving the tdc around in stt) - it happens prior stt... ;-)

Ah copy all, I misunderstood the issue.

It boggles my mind that we have 2 folks with real life experience in this thread yet the internet experts keep yakking away.

I would recommend we pay attention to Alpha and Sinnerman49