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Pirouette logic FCS


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I sure hope so!

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OOOOhhh, I wish I had the Alpha of a Hornet!

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The F-15 is using a simple systems simulation. Advanced flight that may involve turning some system or switch may not be available because of that. I doubt the Hornet will have the same constraint.

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Tuck under jink, loaded floor jink, vector roll are ones I know of. They still kinda work but you have to be at the perfect AoA in DCS for it to work and it doesn't wrap around the nose or cause the quick weird change of direction that it should. The F-15 can also pirouette but it isn't controlled by the FCS, it is pilot flown using essentially the same control inputs and it's not a 180 degree change of direction for an eagle, just a way to possibly gun a guy when in scissors and have a slight altitude advantage. I just hate that the F-15's nose stops moving around 30 AoA in game when it can go 40+ and still be turning IRL, you'll just be bleeding energy like crazy.

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Pirouette logic is a thing in Super Hornet but Legacy Hornet doesn't have any dedicated logic for it. Super Hornet got a new FBW that also eliminated the Pirouette maneuver and a dedicated logic for enambling the maneuver was added from pilots request. Lecagy Hornet got the new FBW from Super Hornet with some modifications as they have some distinct differences in control surfaces so it's unclear to me if updated Legacy Hornet FBW has or needs dedicated logic for pirouette. Super Hornet FBW is very complex system and I doubt it's possible to simulate it perfectly (adapts to damage automatically for example) without big impact on fps or very long (and costly) development time.

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Few years ago I was told by an active Swiss Hornet driver that for performing the piourette all he has to do is fly at the proper speed, attitude and slam the controls (full aft stick and aileron and full rudder in direction of aileron input) and all of the magic is done by the computer. Hmm.

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Pirouette logic is a thing in Super Hornet but Legacy Hornet doesn't have any dedicated logic for it. Super Hornet got a new FBW that also eliminated the Pirouette maneuver and a dedicated logic for enambling the maneuver was added from pilots request. Lecagy Hornet got the new FBW from Super Hornet with some modifications as they have some distinct differences in control surfaces so it's unclear to me if updated Legacy Hornet FBW has or needs dedicated logic for pirouette. Super Hornet FBW is very complex system and I doubt it's possible to simulate it perfectly (adapts to damage automatically for example) without big impact on fps or very long (and costly) development time.

 

I read this straight from the Hornet NFM manual so it's definitely in the C model and was a part of the fcs software before the 10.7 software upgrade. I really hope the hornet has its high aoa characteristics thats what sets the aircraft apart from other aircraft and is one of its advantages.

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Would love it! Kinda doubtful it will be implemented since there's some crazy F-15C high AoA maneuvers you can do in real life but not in DCS. Seems above 30 units AoA in DCS the F-15C nose just freezes all movement....
Or maybe you are just flying ham-fisted ...

The Eagle handles AOA fine and is controllable at over 40 units but generally this isn't where you want to be, and best controllability is under the tone.

If you spike the AoA then yes, the nose will stop, and spiking the nose is quite easy.

 

I don't know if the behavior is the same with CAS off, btw, worth checking.

 

You may be perfectly correct - or it may just be the player interface (You don't get the feels for stick throws that you get in RL), and of course given that this is the very edge of the envelope, this is where we'd see most issues. One main limitation is SME and document input: These are things that you can gather from documents, IF they are available ... often they're not.


Edited by GGTharos

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Not really sure its fair to compare the F-15 that is intensely simplified to something like the Hornet..
Pretty sure it's fair since no part of the fight model is simplified.

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The F-15 is using a simple systems simulation. Advanced flight that may involve turning some system or switch may not be available because of that. I doubt the Hornet will have the same constraint.
No switches are involved, it's all stick, rudder and throttle. And btw you can turn the CAS on and off.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Or maybe you are just flying ham-fisted ...

The Eagle handles AOA fine and is controllable at over 40 units but generally this isn't where you want to be, and best controllability is under the tone.

If you spike the AoA then yes, the nose will stop, and spiking the nose is quite easy.

 

I don't know if the behavior is the same with CAS off, btw, worth checking.

 

You may be perfectly correct - or it may just be the player interface (You don't get the feels for stick throws that you get in RL), and of course given that this is the very edge of the envelope, this is where we'd see most issues. One main limitation is SME and document input: These are things that you can gather from documents, IF they are available ... often they're not.

Can see it being user input error, as most of the time when pulling the high AoA like that in game I'm defensive trying to defeat gunshots so not really looking at the AoA in the HUD. Eagle does some visible shaking in the game which helps at the high AoA but it doesn't quite replace the different levels of buffet feeling you get from the actual jet, surely.

 

I still believe some of the high AoA maneuvers I mentioned earlier aren't as effective as they should be based on tests with other guys telling me when they are pulling the trigger to cue me when to start, but I might just have to practice it more in DCS.

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Can see it being user input error, as most of the time when pulling the high AoA like that in game I'm defensive trying to defeat gunshots so not really looking at the AoA in the HUD. Eagle does some visible shaking in the game which helps at the high AoA but it doesn't quite replace the different levels of buffet feeling you get from the actual jet, surely.

 

There is sound and cockpit shaking - you need to adjust the sound to 'feel it properly' but it will help. Thing is, you can pull right through controllable AoA very easy.

 

I still believe some of the high AoA maneuvers I mentioned earlier aren't as effective as they should be based on tests with other guys telling me when they are pulling the trigger to cue me when to start, but I might just have to practice it more in DCS.

 

IMHO that's too late. Jinks are to prevent the pipper from being on you, and if possible, to get out of the HuD. Too late when they're shooting or established, you just won't get out of the way in time. Shell ToF is well under a second, possibly under half, and your (human) reaction eats 200ms, moving the controls eats another so much etc.

 

Start your jink when you see bandit is about to establish proper lead.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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  • 2 weeks later...

It appears the DFCS Logic was updated in 2003 to v10.7 which, if I’m understanding correctly, includes the pirouette logic:

 

The purpose of this study was to evaluate the capability to demonstrate F/A-18 Hornet departure characteristics, mainly the spin, with Flight Control Computer (FCC) Operation Flight Program (OFP) Version 10.7 (v10.7). Version 10.7 was released to the Navy and Marine Corps F/A-18A/B/C/D fleet in 2003. Version 10.7 was developed based on the existing FCC OFP (v10.5.1) to minimize out-of-control flight or departure related mishaps.
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