Could a DCS player fly a plane IRL?

Lets discuss a hypothetical scenario where a veteran DCS player, with no actual flight experience were to hop inside of a real airplane, in this example a Hornet, but it does not really matter. Would they be able to start, taxi, takeoff, and land(weapons deployment?)? Why or why not?

I'd wager no, without any external help etc, because I believe certain critical startup procedures and such are missing, due to either and/or being classified and for security/safety reasons. However if we skip that then I think someone that's very familiar with flight within simulators (albeit with no actual real-life training/experience) could stand a good chance at it, as for deploying weapons etc, no, most of the actual modern systems for weapons are classified.

The piloting side of things though would (without any extreme manoeuvres) be quite easy, the FBW avionics etc give a lot of help to the pilot.

I'd wager no, without any external help etc, because I believe certain critical startup procedures and such are missing, due to either and/or being classified and for security/safety reasons. However if we skip that then I think someone that's very familiar with flight within simulators (albeit with no actual real-life training/experience) could stand a good chance at it, as for deploying weapons etc, no, most of the actual modern systems for weapons is classified.

I suppose thats true, what if it is an airplane that isnt classified? Mustang for example?

I found this youtube video of a guy doing it IRL:

Powerful tail-draggers probably wouldn't be advisable as a test of that, it can get real messy real fast. Having said that, if one was just after being able to aviate then sure, but flight simulators can build so many bad habits, like poor lookout, so for something like the little Cessna, sure, but with an asterisk on bad habits. But in short; it can give you a really good headsup on cockpit familiarity etc, so to force an answer... yes, kinda.

Powerful tail-draggers probably wouldn't be advisable as a test of that, it can get real messy real fast. Having said that, if one was just after being able to aviate then sure, but flight simulators can build so many bad habits, like poor lookout, so for something like the little Cessna, sure, but with an asterisk on bad habits. But in short; it can give you a really good headsup on cockpit familiarity etc, so to force an answer... yes, kinda.

yes, kinda but your likely to end up a fireball is what you mean

Even on a simple aircraft, landing might be questionable.

yes, kinda but your likely to end up a fireball is what you mean

Yeah, I think even reading about and flying the P-51's torque roll/yaw moment in a simulator wouldn't be enough to set oneself up for the real thing, not without leading into it with a tamer tail-dragger.

If you're to take that even further, simulators rarely (in some cases not at all) punish you for missing out checklists, we have no walk-around either, for example; so cue people trying to taxi off with chocks in place, tie-downs attached, control-surface locks in place, inadequate fuel and so on.

But yeah, with say the P-51, I reckon you could probably get the engine going and if there are no maintenance issues/surprises, if you make it off the ground and respect that power without augering into the periphery; you could aviate around quite merrily, aviating with conventional aircraft is pretty easy, the hard part is the landing, sticking to a pattern, radio comms, navigation etc.

It's been about 25 years since I sat at the controls of a real prop plane. From memory, good quality sims can have genuine practical value in terms of cockpit familiarity, various procedures and fight characteristics for specific types.

What flight sims in general, and I must say DCS in particular does not really teach you are manual (map, compass, analogue flight computer etc) flight planning, navigation, radio procedures etc. essentially the 'admin' around flying from A --> B.

I've never been a military pilot but I would imagine that >90% of a military pilot's time is taken up by training flying and these 'admin' tasks as opposed to dropping iron on targets or sending AAM's down range.

This is something I'd like to see DCS expand on in the future, though it seems we'll get some more of this with the forthcoming F/A-18C carrier ops.

Edited to add: again from fairly distant memory, manual planning of a flight, pre-flight, all those admin tasks usually took ~2x as long as the flight itself.

Indeed, I think for a simulator to be of benefit for going into real aviation it'd require a lot of discipline and understanding potential pitfalls for negative training/bad habits, it's all to easy to just shrug off checks, skip loads of steps and flip up the switches that make loud noises and go for it.

It's been years since I got at a real stick and rudder and already I've forgotten so much, but the stick and rudder stuff lingers the longest, along with basic principles and so on, at least for me.

The idea of real flight simulator training is too practice procedures that are not commonly used. Emergency caution indicators and what situation might have led up to this and the number of corrections that must be sorted out very quickly. Systems failure in flight that obviously cannot be implemented in actual flight. Fire, mechanical failure, instruments that are incorrect, fuel, weight/balance, maintenance history and the list goes on.

Our simplified simulators do not come close to many events/situiations that come up almost every flight that are somewhat out of the norm. An unfamiliar pilot will be overwhelmed almost immediately if an abnormal event happens.

Don't kid yourself thinking you will be able to pilot an aircraft with only flight sim experience.

Go for a first time check ride at a local flight school. The easiest trainer, Cessna 152, and of course a CFI, ask if you could be PIC, right seat and you want to do all the flying from start to finish. Tell your CFI that you are proficient in a home type simulator but have zero experience in a actual aircraft. What do you think he will say?

Now picture you in a P-51. With only flight sim experience.

Now picture you in a F-18. With only filght sim experience.

Look up aircraft accidents and hours, in type, of the PIC.

If you make it to the correct runway while taxing without crashing into something or hitting something, and somehow get on the runway and start your take-off run, again without swerving off the runway while adding power...

Make it into the air without stalling while trying to make your first turn, as you forget your flaps are extended and you cannot see anything since the nose of the aircraft is blocking your view and the unfamiliar motion and the sudden feeling that you are not sure of the attitude of your aircraft's position but you fight off the vertigo and make it through the first turn only to realize the aircraft is not doing what you are doing with the controls, scares the sh-- out of you and then ....all you have to do is to wonder why the stall warning is still going off and the engine sounds louder than at take-off....

and gee all you have to do then is too finish all the check list and probably prepare for your landing. Lets see, nothing is familiar when I look out the windscreen...where the hell is the airport runway, it all looks the same.

No, you will not be able to fly a training aircraft, much less a WW2 prop plane and even more doubtful, a modern jet fighter without killing yourself at some point.

4 or 5 hours training you will be able to probably taxi a trainer with direction from your flight instructor and may even be able to take-off if you have had ground school and know how to communicate with the tower but even at this juncture you will be very unfamiliar with all the important flight rules, the aircraft and a host of other characteristics that must be almost second nature.

If this is a taildragger and you only have 4-5 hours you probably wont be able to take-off and taxing will be quite challenging. You will not be able to land without killing yourself. I have over 1100 hours in real taildraggers.

I know... I've heard the stories of folks that have flown without sim or real flight experience.

Thats a Death Wish.

Laz :D

Of course I had to ask - what about the stories (if any) where a passenger (maybe with simulation experience) of an airliner had to land the aircraft - while chatting with ATC - because both pilots are down with food poisening (or something along these lines). Is there any truth to those stories at all?

Of course I had to ask - what about the stories (if any) where a passenger (maybe with simulation experience) of an airliner had to land the aircraft - while chatting with ATC - because both pilots are down with food poisening (or something along these lines). Is there any truth to those stories at all?

I'm not aware of anything close, only one incident (with audio recording) of a single engine PPL, a passenger in P2 seat landing a multi-engine he had no experience with, when the P1 died after rotation.

Roger that; I looked it up, and this is what Wikipedia had:

Large commercial aircraft

There is no record of a talk down landing of a large commercial aircraft. There have, however, been incidents where qualified pilots travelling as passengers or flight attendants on commercial flights have taken the co-pilot's seat to assist the pilot.

EDIT:

Found this as well:

A 2007 edition of the science entertainment television program MythBusters entitled "Air Plane Hour" aimed to determine whether an untrained civilian could be instructed how to successfully land a plane over the radio with the aid of a NASA flight simulator. For their first test, the two presenters who had no flight experience attempted to land a plane unaided. One came in at a steep angle and too fast and the simulated plane flipped over and broke apart, the other stalled and crash-landed in a field. They then repeated the exercise with instructions by radio from a licensed pilot and both were able to land safely.

Roger that; I looked it up, and this is what Wikipedia had:

 

Large commercial aircraft

There is no record of a talk down landing of a large commercial aircraft. There have, however, been incidents where qualified pilots travelling as passengers or flight attendants on commercial flights have taken the co-pilot's seat to assist the pilot.

 

EDIT:

Found this as well:

A 2007 edition of the science entertainment television program MythBusters entitled "Air Plane Hour" aimed to determine whether an untrained civilian could be instructed how to successfully land a plane over the radio with the aid of a NASA flight simulator. For their first test, the two presenters who had no flight experience attempted to land a plane unaided. One came in at a steep angle and too fast and the simulated plane flipped over and broke apart, the other stalled and crash-landed in a field. They then repeated the exercise with instructions by radio from a licensed pilot and both were able to land safely.

Added it to my prior message, but here's a bit more;

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2009/april/14/unintentional-king-air-pilot-an-interview-with-doug-white

Many, many hours in sims before earning my PP ASEL and really the only benefit was that I knew what the instruments were supposed to do. Never realized it until flying in real life, but we spend far too much time heads down instead of looking outside. However, I have to say that the scenery quality "back in the day" Vs say, X Plane 11 meant that there wasn't a whole lot to look at.

One thing I did find useful in FSX was to pre-fly my long solo XC a few times and I was surprised at how well that worked in terms of leg times and for giving me at least a rough idea of where major landmarks were in relation to each of my destination airports (Chandler AZ -> Blythe CA -> Yuma AZ -> Chandler AZ)

lazduc is correct, I had many hours in DCS Gazelle, actually thought I wasn't too bad and that was back when the Gazelle would kill you if you so much as blinked at the wrong time. :P

I went for an introductory flight in an R44 Cadet and trust me DCS gives you zero real world experience, you could be fine with systems, procedures but just the difference in the way the inputs respond will likely bring you undone and gravity is a very possessive beast. Chances of surviving the first few minutes without an instructor are not good.

What I did get from that flight was a fairly good understanding and feel for the inputs and I have since changed my kit to be more representative of actual controls, still a WIP. Latter with much more practice and a very understanding wife, long story short by time I got to my 3rd hour I could actually do circuits.

I'm not saying DCS doesn't help, indeed with VR it kinda gives you a fairly good experience it's just that there still seems to be a lot missing. Oh well back to saving up more for next time. :D

PS Do not let my instructor see any of my DCS flying, please. ;)

Many, many hours in sims before earning my PP ASEL and really the only benefit was that I knew what the instruments were supposed to do. Never realized it until flying in real life, but we spend far too much time heads down instead of looking outside. However, I have to say that the scenery quality "back in the day" Vs say, X Plane 11 meant that there wasn't a whole lot to look at.

 

One thing I did find useful in FSX was to pre-fly my long solo XC a few times and I was surprised at how well that worked in terms of leg times and for giving me at least a rough idea of where major landmarks were in relation to each of my destination airports (Chandler AZ -> Blythe CA -> Yuma AZ -> Chandler AZ)

Agreed, poor lookout was certainly bred before TrackIR was a thing, in my opinion, old MS flight sims and others had you staring straight ahead unless you tapped keys. Plus, flying by the seat of ones pants doesn't come across with sims, that certainly helps in giving you great feedback to make corrections, though perhaps a luxury. Yep cockpit familiarity and such is quite valuable, though I've flown several Robins and each was different from the next.

I think if the plane's engines are on and at the runway , then we can fly it but no guarantee for landing :)

There has actually been research done on this and in every case the answer was no. I believe that there was a Mythbuster's episode about this also. They were pretty easy on the people they tested and gave them leeway but it still came up that there were just too many factors involved for a sim enthusiast to actually fly a plane.

I can further make the case through my own experience. I had a friend who maintained multi million dollar simulators for a company named Flight Safety International. He booked me and a pilot friend of mine into the sim rooms for a few hours. I "flew" several commercial aircraft. I was able to get the planes off the ground with a ton of help. But a good example of why I would have killed everyone on board was as soon as the planes leave the ground, they bank up at what seems like 45%. The instructor was yelling at me "trim the aircraft!" Well.......my trim on my computer and the trim on a real AC were in two different places. As were a boatload of other very important things. I had my pilot buddy land the AC as it was much harder. He was not a commercial pilot and was use to single engine AC and he had to have instruction to get the planes down.

To be fair. That experience was based on Xplane more than DCS. But none the less. I was glad the it was only a simulator.

To be clear. The sim I was flying was a full cockpit with hydraulic lifts. It is used to train RL pilots. They are so closely maintained to the real AC that we had to log everything. Had I crashed the plane, they would have had to make a report.

In conclusion, I wouldn't want to try and fly a real AC without extensive training.

I've had some flights where things got really bumpy and also experienced wind-sheer a couple of times, one in which resulted in a rather hefty return to terra-firma, flight simulators just don't convey that adequately enough to the extent that I think a sim-only-chairviator would probably get way out of shape and be woefully unprepared for such an experience.

The idea of real flight simulator training is too practice procedures that are not commonly used. Emergency caution indicators and what situation might have led up to this and the number of corrections that must be sorted out very quickly. Systems failure in flight that obviously cannot be implemented in actual flight. Fire, mechanical failure, instruments that are incorrect, fuel, weight/balance, maintenance history and the list goes on.

 

Our simplified simulators do not come close to many events/situiations that come up almost every flight that are somewhat out of the norm. An unfamiliar pilot will be overwhelmed almost immediately if an abnormal event happens.

 

Don't kid yourself thinking you will be able to pilot an aircraft with only flight sim experience.

 

Go for a first time check ride at a local flight school. The easiest trainer, Cessna 152, and of course a CFI, ask if you could be PIC, right seat and you want to do all the flying from start to finish. Tell your CFI that you are proficient in a home type simulator but have zero experience in a actual aircraft. What do you think he will say?

 

Now picture you in a P-51. With only flight sim experience.

Now picture you in a F-18. With only filght sim experience.

 

Look up aircraft accidents and hours, in type, of the PIC.

 

If you make it to the correct runway while taxing without crashing into something or hitting something, and somehow get on the runway and start your take-off run, again without swerving off the runway while adding power...

 

Make it into the air without stalling while trying to make your first turn, as you forget your flaps are extended and you cannot see anything since the nose of the aircraft is blocking your view and the unfamiliar motion and the sudden feeling that you are not sure of the attitude of your aircraft's position but you fight off the vertigo and make it through the first turn only to realize the aircraft is not doing what you are doing with the controls, scares the sh-- out of you and then ....all you have to do is to wonder why the stall warning is still going off and the engine sounds louder than at take-off....

 

and gee all you have to do then is too finish all the check list and probably prepare for your landing. Lets see, nothing is familiar when I look out the windscreen...where the hell is the airport runway, it all looks the same.

 

No, you will not be able to fly a training aircraft, much less a WW2 prop plane and even more doubtful, a modern jet fighter without killing yourself at some point.

 

4 or 5 hours training you will be able to probably taxi a trainer with direction from your flight instructor and may even be able to take-off if you have had ground school and know how to communicate with the tower but even at this juncture you will be very unfamiliar with all the important flight rules, the aircraft and a host of other characteristics that must be almost second nature.

 

If this is a taildragger and you only have 4-5 hours you probably wont be able to take-off and taxing will be quite challenging. You will not be able to land without killing yourself. I have over 1100 hours in real taildraggers.

 

I know... I've heard the stories of folks that have flown without sim or real flight experience.

Thats a Death Wish.

 

Laz :D

During WW2 people were flying taildraggers solo with 10 hrs total in their logbook. Of course many of them had crashes... But I think 4-5 hrs just to taxi around the airfield isn't giving the average person enough credit.

good question and has been posted a few times on other forums, avism etc and the general answer is no

Very interesting topic, and my answer is "it depends". If you fly in DCS strictly following the procedures, then yes it can help a lot. If you just slam the throttle, bounce into the air and fly mindlessly, then you may as well play car racing games - it won't help you with your flying.

I've played sims for 20+ years. Only in the recent years did sims with more or less realistic FM-s appear, such as DCS. 4 years ago I signed up for Glider pilot training. All my instructors were amazed at how fast I progressed. Last year I started my LAPL, same story. If you follow procedures in DCS, they will become second nature without spending time and money in the air. You get used to reading your instruments, the basic concept of navigation, recognizing landmarks, etc...All these will give you a huge advantage when fying for real.

This being said, if I sat in a real P-51 right now...I don't know. Even with real flying experience. I could probably start it up, taxi to the runway. I believe I could even pull off a cautious, and very sloppy takeoff. I might kill myself tying to throw the plane around too much, and there is a fat chance the plane would be damaged on landing, and I'd possibly be killed. I'd love to give it a try, though :)

The answer is not definitively no.

You can not learn to fly a plane or a helicopter on a simulator.Overall you forget essential things that are perceptions and sensations impossible to reproduce on a computer, for now .

On board a real plane, it crackles, it squeaks, it vibrates, it jumps, it smells like gasoline or kerosene, it smells the smell of the people who have preceded you, sometimes it stinks, the wind shakes the airplane and the rain makes it slide, the temperature is either too low or too high, the sun through the cockpit is aggressive, the reverberation requires you to wear glasses ... etc.

All of these things, you have to manage them in addition to being able to correctly interpret what you read on the instruments.

And manage also,what you feel in the parts of your body,which have physical contact with the device, your hands, your feet, your back, your buttocks.

The first time you get on a plane, I say "go up", you do not feel safe, you are not as quiet as when you sit in front of the screen of your computer and you know that nothing can not happen to you.

Fear decreases your abilities and reduces your field of vision.

Nothing comes to tell you that you will come out safe, as long as you do not assimilate the whole environment.

In simulators nothing is done to scare you, it's counterproductive. Programmers only code spectacular stuff, like any game.

your perception of flying warbirds comes from the fact that programmers have decided to make you play.

If you think a little: how many young pilots were able to handle warbirds after so few hours of training?

Because it was easy, stable planes.

In the game programmers exaggerate the behavior.

watch the video of a pilot of FW190 during the war, who gives his opinion on the game. You will see that he does not always agree with the programmers, and you will also see that the programmers do not really listen what he has to say.

Ps:I spent many hours flying real planes and helicopters, and I've been playing simulators for about a decade.

Nothing is comparable except for the cosmetic aspect.

http://cromhunt.proboards.com/thread/160/real-flight

Take the opposite example. When my new flight instructor handed me the controls and I trimmed it out and sat at level flight, she said, "Oh have you had flight experience before?"

Different angle.

The OP said along the lines of, 'could you (in the Hornet) start it up, taxi, takeoff, deliver weapons'. He didn't say anything about actually obeying rules, flying safely, not endangering yourself or others, understanding principles, weather, planning etc, which forms the core of flying, rather than the basic process of getting it up.

Take a parallel over simplification. Can I get into a car I've never driven, take it to the shops and drive safely? Could a person that never drove before but played Project cars or something do the same? I know for a fact I'd be safer, and I'd learn faster, jeez I get hire cars all the time at work.

Flying is a bunch more administration, regulation and process than we do in DCS, (same with driving actually, you might struggle getting used to a new clutch) and there's a lot more to just the safety and checklists which can be boggling, but at the end of the day, as a "skill" it's actually not that hard, it's mostly knowledge ... and no I'm not going to talk tail draggers, although the pilots I've spoken to say it feels harder in DCS!

So, in terms of the OP, I think you would be close, as long as you can retrain your brain fast enough for the different feel, and not withstanding the average person would likely have a Military jet along side them pretty quickly for wandering somewhere they shouldn't and not answering/obeying.

It doesn't take long to learn how to "switch it on", but at the same time You would get more from MS simulator and learning basic airmanship for flying, than you would from DCS, and ultimately that would be the thing that influenced your fate sooner in the OP's scenario.

Ask yourself this, would the WW2 airmen with 10 hours training had a better survival rate with a couple of weeks of DCS Spitfire on top? You bet they would, why else does the military have simulators if they weren't any use?

The truth lies somewhere in between, but your chances are much better with simulator hours.