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More modern REDFOR planes!


Southernbear

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Because that isn't realistically practical. They aren't just copy paste opportunities in DCS. In other games, yes, in this one, no.

 

You really think that the Mi-24 flight dynamics are completely different if you swap a GSh-30 to YakB to GSh-23? Yes, new calculations for the forces when firing at different directions, but that really shouldn't be challenge for experienced programmers.

 

The more challenging problems are if rotor assembly gets changed, but engine related not so much again if engines don't change much. But otherwise they are same fuselage, performance and all. Cockpits changes likely on the co-pilot side far more than on pilot side (pilot still requires HUD for rocket aiming etc).

 

It means redoing the cockpit, in some cases redoing the external model (although usually this won't be a major issue), and in many cases redoing the flight model. That is why, to date, variants have been extremely minor differences. The only ''significant'' version difference we have is the F-14A/F-14B, and you'll notice that after a considerable amount of time, we still only have one of them.

 

So basically you agree, it is "minor" compared to "redo a new flight modeling". Closer to L-39C vs L-39AZ than F-14B vs F-14A. And so many things doesn't require redoing the flight modeling, that is just exaggeration. As it is literally mostly "copy-paste" work and then modifying the different parts.

 

I know only one writer (J.R.R Tolkien) who rewrote the whole book from the start when he hit to situation where he couldn't continue story by having some issues with story line. He was perfectionist. What does many other writers do? They simply modify, they make things to work. Is there a loop holes? Yes, but once you go so deep that you invent new languages, new alphabets, new races and all, the story line is small one in all of it.

 

And the idea that one would need to rewrite all or most of it just because one changes cannon, is off alot.

 

You're not going to see a proliferation of major versions of the same aircraft as cheap DLC addons. IF they ever exist at all, it will typically be as full priced and very separate modules, because they are generally just as much trouble to do as the initial one was.

 

You are just exaggerating now.

 

Point was examples and that there are A LOT of variants that really are very minors to large ones. Literally just having a few new instruments in the cockpit to far major ones.

 

And when you need BASE + Variant, it is always bringing more more if someone wants just that specific variant as they need to buy that base + wanted variant. And when it is easier to do slight modified variants (not just now "new cockpit livery" level, but actually something new and different).

 

Maybe I should have used L-39 or C-101 as examples for base + variant add-on, so people wouldn't get so hangup to believes "You must redo the whole flight modeling, basically the whole module because you just have added lots of stuff that..."

 

I wish you would have little less believes that how high and accurate flight modeling DCS is simulating. Developers can tweak the flight modeling a lot afterwards, and it is easy if the code framework and design is well made as that is the real challenge. Once you hit a design error in the framework, you can't just try to adjust values as you likely need to redo a lot of it.

 

Like example look the MH-6 Open Helicopter FM project. It flies almost better than already one unmentioned studio helicopter, and it is from one developer, lacking a lot of features etc. But he has got a lot of things right for the base level, with great idea to support a modding community so they can grab the code and adjust it for their wanted mod helicopter and get it working without basing it to KA-50 etc and then participate to original by giving changes back.

 

We can get just small modding communities, that some of them might even one day lead to official 3rd party studio.

 

And that is the situation here as well, to see that ED would redo a "Belsimtek" and use such studio to do more modern RedAir fighters.

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+1

 

Seriously I would like to see planes like Yak 141, MiG-29M and Su-25SM in DCS. Especialy Su-25SM would be great addition for upcoming Syria map. I dont mind FC3 level, Its still better than nothing. Also older planes like Su-17(22), MiG-27 or Su-15 would make great additions for Cold War scenarios.

 

How much would a SM be different from the A variant?

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Yeah, Fri, those two Hind variants you mentioned are really similar, and appropriate options, yes. All that bs you said about A-10s, F-16s, etc, is well bs. Those are NOT viable options, as they involve complete reworks of nearly everything. I didn't read your wall of text, you're cherry picking and ignoring the bulk of what you originally said and what I responded to.

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MAYBE some EARLY Su 27 or Mig 29 family series....EARLY.

 

We have Su-27S, that is first serial production version.

Next step really is Su-27M (1st gen) that is full glass cockpit and all in. Then comes Su-27PU aka Su-30, glass cockpit and all.

 

There really ain't much to go than for Su-27SK, export variant of S before you get glass cockpits and all modern things that Su-35M has (2nd gen Su27M).

 

The Su-27 truly quickly got modernized and very much to high level that was better than F-15, F-16 or F-18.

 

So there ain't much where to go from what we have now. So clickable Su-27S would be it.

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The SM is a much more modern glass cockpit variant, I think the SM stands for serial modernized but don't quote me on that.

 

I have understanding that SM3 brought a one MFCD, where SM and SM2 are just about HUD instead gunsight.

But that MFCD might have come already in SM upgrade.

 

I would take SM gladly, but so a A variant as it is so cool to fly. Just give me a good AI and radio connection to them and it works.

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I have understanding that SM3 brought a one MFCD, where SM and SM2 are just about HUD instead gunsight.

But that MFCD might have come already in SM upgrade.

 

I would take SM gladly, but so a A variant as it is so cool to fly. Just give me a good AI and radio connection to them and it works.

 

Yeah you're right, to be honest I really don't care if it's full fidelity either way.

Full fidelity su27/mig29 ?

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We need an India based 3rd party developer like Deka in China. I believe many Indian people good at coding. Next step would be to find bunch of Indian coders passion enough with flight sim and have access to Indian Navy to develope MiG-29K lol.

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Yeah, Fri, those two Hind variants you mentioned are really similar, and appropriate options, yes. All that bs you said about A-10s, F-16s, etc, is well bs.

 

I didn't talk about A-10 at all as such.

 

I only said about A-10 that it is not at all same vibe to fly a C as it would be A, what is the point that we need more OLD versions from the aircrafts so that we do not get very modern or last ones. Like F/A-18C Lot 20 is operational, a F-16C Block 50 is operational. And those likely would have been far nicer to have something like F/A-18A and F-16A than last ones.

 

The "Cold War" era has been completely ignored at this moment in DCS by any other than the Flaming Cliffs 3 package. But what can be done when most customers likely just want "insta win" modules.

 

What comes to F-16, there are lots of F-16C variants that are not so much different, but still enough to be different for purchase. As even Block 50 version is, quoting a aircrew chief here, unique on each airframe as there "is no other unit that is same". So you can have 50 units in base and all are different, yet in same standard. If developers would find a such that is different enough but not too much, they could consider doing it. But west has not done so much upgrades and variations typically as Soviet engineers has done, and there are more variations with some minor changes for.

 

Those are NOT viable options, as they involve complete reworks of nearly everything. I didn't read your wall of text, you're cherry picking and ignoring the bulk of what you originally said and what I responded to.

 

So you admit that you have not read what other has written, and then you claim that the other is cherry picking and ignoring what he has said and what you responded... Seriously?

 

If you do not read, you have zero ground to stand to say about anything, especially when you do not read and you cherry pick something and ignore everything else as you didn't even understand the part you read.

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We need an India based 3rd party developer like Deka in China. I believe many Indian people good at coding.

 

There are more programmers in that country than rest of the world together, possibly. And you will have difficulties to find a good programmers for the task as required because there is so many to go search for. There are those who are excellent, but if there is 1000 behind that are not, it is not easy to get them find each others.

 

 

Next step would be to find bunch of Indian coders passion enough with flight sim and have access to Indian Navy to develope MiG-29K lol.

 

For the times I have spent in Indian military bases and as guest for the base commanders etc. You are not going to see that. They are very very strict about military policies. Like example you can be on boat going just half a kilometer off their base and if they see you have a camera in hands and pointing the military equipment, they can send patrol boat to remove the film or take the card. So seeing there their aircraft carrier is not a "Wow, I want to take photos!" kind thing people should be doing. But if you are good friends with right people, you can get experiences of lifetime...

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Just as a reminder the MIG 23 is coming to DCS by RAZBAM.

 

 

Mig-23-DNST8908431_JPG.jpg

 

Yeah but at the end of the day its a Mig 23 and thats kinda the root of what everyone is talking about. I don't see a Mig 23 having an easy time when in a 1v1 with say...a F-18.

 

People want more options for modern aircraft and frankly the best way to go about it is FC3/MAC

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Well, my hope is that RAZBAM will do early MiG-29 (or M or SMT if we are lucky, K if we are blessed by heavens) after they release MiG-23. But they already have an enormous amount of planned work and their team is small, and there are some issues with currently existing modules of theirs. Yet it seems more likely than to have a Russian module developed by any other 3rd party currently existing. Maybe a new 3rd party developer may join us, and will announce Russian stuff, but that's something completely unpredictable.

 

BTW, it has been suggested numerous times by some people here that we should bombard the 3rd parties subforums with such requests, not ED's. I know some threads were created there a long time ago, but they were not as popular as those created here. Maybe we should start a thread at, say, RAZBAM subforum and at least have some answer about whether it's possible and interesting for them to create more Russian modules, especially modern ones?


Edited by Nipil
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Yeah but at the end of the day its a Mig 23 and thats kinda the root of what everyone is talking about. I don't see a Mig 23 having an easy time when in a 1v1 with say...a F-18.

 

People want more options for modern aircraft and frankly the best way to go about it is FC3/MAC

 

 

I can totally understand wanting more options but as far as full fidelity options go it is what it is. We are just going to make do with what ever a developer is lucky enough to get approved for development.

 

And sure there could be more potential options available through MAC in the future but it would just be a guesstimate of an aircraft representation that looks like a Russian fighter jet. For that you don't even need to wait for MAC as there are a few other options out there that can provide that.

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How much would a SM be different from the A variant?
Quite a lot. It have new navigation/gunnery complex PrNK-25SM Bars (which should have more precise navigation and more automatization in searching and tracking targets), new L150 Pastel RWR, new HUD and two MFDs, MSP-410 Omul jammer, bigger payload, additional pylons and R-73 missiles. Also It can carry laser-guided KAB-500ML bombs.
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Quite a lot. It have new navigation/gunnery complex PrNK-25SM Bars (which should have more precise navigation and more automatization in searching and tracking targets), new L150 Pastel RWR, new HUD and two MFDs, MSP-410 Omul jammer, bigger payload, additional pylons and R-73 missiles. Also It can carry laser-guided KAB-500ML bombs.

 

Only Scorpion (Su-25SKM) is with two MFCD. SM might be with one, but SM2 and SM3 definitely has one MFFD.

 

And I have no idea does it have any targeting capabilities than what comes with a pod, IIRC it would still have just a laser like A.

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Yeah but at the end of the day its a Mig 23 and thats kinda the root of what everyone is talking about. I don't see a Mig 23 having an easy time when in a 1v1 with say...a F-18.

 

People want more options for modern aircraft and frankly the best way to go about it is FC3/MAC

 

I mean DCS would be better if ED just filled out a "time period". I think the 80's would have been an excellent choice. You get "modern ish" without all the hassle of "sekrits". Plus its a more fox2 environment so you actually get dogfights vs fox3 lob fests.

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Non Clickable MIG 31 and SU 27M/35 would balance out the vast gap between Red and Blue forces. Everybody talking about this on every PVP server i i`ve played. There are even mods out there for these two planes. And people have to place F16 and F14 for Reds to balance out the gameplay but it only makes things worse. What are ED thinking i don`t get it! This is so stupid. It`s a matter of a couple months for them to bring these two modules into the game as they allready have these planes implemented as an AI. ED - sell them as a separate low fidelity planes! God damit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Non Clickable MIG 31 and SU 27M/35 would balance out the vast gap between Red and Blue forces. Everybody talking about this on every PVP server i i`ve played. There are even mods out there for these two planes. And people have to place F16 and F14 for Reds to balance out the gameplay but it only makes things worse. What are ED thinking i don`t get it! This is so stupid. It`s a matter of a couple months for them to bring these two modules into the game as they allready have these planes implemented as an AI. ED - sell them as a separate low fidelity planes! God damit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I totally understand there needing to be a balance of an opposing force. But I hardly think low fidelity models would make for a fair and well balanced contenders. Several years ago the F15C was the go to airplane because it was the easiest aircraft to score kills in just because it was easy to operate. I doubt that would had been the case if the F-15C would had been a full fidelity module

 

So the only two realistic solutions is for ED to either focus more on a generation of aircraft that are old enough and unclassified to be granted the necessary licenses.

 

Or just wait for MAC to be released where ED could have more freedom to feature a more modern set of aircraft using low fidelity simulation that are well balanced because it would not be as restricted.

 

But the caveat would be that it would all be limited to just low fidelity modules by my understanding.


Edited by Evoman
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I totally understand there needing to be a balance of an opposing force. But I hardly think low fidelity models would make for a fair and well balanced contenders. Several years ago the F15C was the got to airplane because it was the easiest aircraft to score kills in just because it was easy to operate. I doubt that would had been the case if the F-15C would had been a full fidelity module

 

So the only two realistic solutions is for ED to either focus more on a generation of aircraft that are old enough and unclassified to be granted the necessary licenses.

 

Or just wait for MAC to be released where ED could have more freedom to feature a more modern set of aircraft using low fidelity simulation that are well balanced because it would not be as restricted.

 

But the caveat would be that it would all be limited to just low fidelity modules by my understanding.

 

Do you wanna fly these jets? something tells me you do. Otherwize why vizit this thread right? Give this thread a highest score in vote if you really wanna contribute to the matter. Nothing stops ED from doing anything with low fidelity modules.I`d by them all. And allmost everybody would grab them for a price of nonclickable plane.


Edited by musolo

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Do you wanna fly these jets? something tells me you do. Otherwize why vizit this thread right? Give this thread a highest score in vote if you really wanna contribute to the matter. Nothing stops ED from doing anything with low fidelity modules.I`d by them all. And allmost everybody would grab them for a price of nonclickable plane.

 

 

 

 

I said what I said because ED had made an announcement a while ago that they were no longer planning on making anymore low fidelity modules for DCS because their focus was going to be on MAC (Modern Air Combat) a new game they are working on made up entirely of low fidelity aircraft.

 

 

 

https://www.gamingnexus.com/News/42247/Eagle-Dynamics-announces-Modern-Air-Combat2c-confuses-DCS-owners/

 

 

I am basically just informing on the facts that I remember reading. You are free to wish all you want but that still wont change ED's plans.


Edited by Evoman
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and No I woudl not buy 1 single low fidelity plane for DCS, ever...The only reason I just Boght FC3 is to fly some MODS, and now ED has closed that door too, I realy wish I could retun the Module or exchange it for a Full Fidelity one.

 

Wait for MAC there you will have your super systems matched killfest Multiplayer sesions...

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