New in-cockpit map for proper WWII navigation

Hi Racoon,

I hope all is well with you and that the Normandy map is progressing in good order.

Any information you may be able to provide regarding the 4 questions below would be gratefully received.

1. Will the pilot in-flight navigation map be able to be used in such as way as to:

a. Enable pilots to look at the map and still fly the aircraft safely with peripheral vision outside the cockpit?

b. Enable pilots to check ground landmarks below with landmarks on the open navigation map?

c. Enable pilots to manipulate the size of the open map to meet their needs in the cockpit?

2. Will the pilot in-flight navigation map be able to be opened by a single “toggle map on/off” key so that 2 separate keys (one for open and one for close) are not needed?

3. If the in-flight navigation map can be sized by the pilot (simulating a real WWII pilot folding the map to the most user-friendly size), can the selected map size be saved automatically so that after the map is turned off and subsequently turned back on again, the map comes back up again at the previously selected user-friendly size?

4. Will the in-flight navigation map have an authentic 1940's period look?

Thanks in anticipation.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Hi Racoon,

 

I hope all is well with you and that the Normandy map is progressing in good order.

 

Any information you may be able to provide regarding the 4 questions below would be gratefully received.

 

1. Will the pilot in-flight navigation map be able to be used in such as way as to:

a. Enable pilots to look at the map and still fly the aircraft safely with peripheral vision outside the cockpit?

b. Enable pilots to check ground landmarks below with landmarks on the open navigation map?

c. Enable pilots to manipulate the size of the open map to meet their needs in the cockpit?

 

2. Will the pilot in-flight navigation map be able to be opened by a single “toggle map on/off” key so that 2 separate keys (one for open and one for close) are not needed?

 

 

3. If the in-flight navigation map can be sized by the pilot (simulating a real WWII pilot folding the map to the most user-friendly size), can the selected map size be saved automatically so that after the map is turned off and subsequently turned back on again, the map comes back up again at the previously selected user-friendly size?

 

4. Will the in-flight navigation map have an authentic 1940's period look?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Basically you want the map from Cliffs of Dover...

Hopefully someone does a physical map we can use, printed or on tablet.

Hi Talisman,

 

Not sure I understand your question properly, because we have kneeboard for in-flight use. It has two positions: on the pilot's knee in cockpit and as 2D image in right side of the monitor. Flying with the kneeboard is very easy. Plus mission maker could add any landmarks on it. Please tell me more about your idea. With reference links if possible.

And yes the map will be most authentic as possible.

Thanks for your reply Racoon and conformation that we will get a kneeboard map. I had thought that the kneeboard was more common in terms of the jet-age and that WWII pilots more often had maps stuffed down their flying boots to pull out when required. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong, but I think having a proper map showing good levels of detail was more important to a pilot in the 1940's than it is flying in the modern world of automatic navigation systems. That is why I had thought that more attention might be given to providing readable, detailed maps for WWII style in-flight navigation; the current DCS kneeboard is not up to that IMHO.

Although kneeboards were used as far back as WWI, they tended to be larger than the one in the current DCS. And that is the thing, the current kneeboard map is too small for the sort of WWII navigation I was thinking of. Although, I suppose it could be considered almost adequate if all we have to do is press a key to display our position on the map, but then that is not really anything like WWII navigation I would have thought; although I suppose that might simulate a reply radio message from a ground controller telling you your location.

To be able to open a more user-friendly map that matches exactly the main map (not a smaller different map) with readable landmarks and names of towns and airfields, etc, that could be manipulated to the size required (drag with mouse) might deliver more realistic WWII navigation.

I suppose my question should have been to ask if DCS intends to provide us with the map navigation challenges of the 1940's, or copy and paste across the current DCS map navigation provision which, correct me if I am wrong, appears to be orientated towards more modern aircraft operations.

If on-screen map navigation is a bit difficult to simulate, then perhaps DCS could make a full map available that could be printed out by us DCS pilots. I would appreciate that above all else if it was possible.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Thanks for detailed information. I already asked the guys who made the kneeboards for WWII pilots about their references and real sizes of kneeboards. I'm not sure about general using of flying boots as map holders. But I know about such things in Soviet Airforce because of numerous stories about that. If you have any information about that please let me know.

Regarding navigation in Normandy map - it should be much easier than in other regions. Because of many airfields, visible coastline and few big cities. But mostly airfields, sometime you can see up to 5 ALGs simultaneously. This is very interesting experience for me.

We're making "paper" style map for the Normandy. I think there will be no big problem to make it print ready. But I'm not sure about this RTS style map you asking for.

Thank you Racoon. I was really concerned about the size of the map and having it limited to the size of the kneeboard and the map being very limited in detail. If possible, a print ready map would be brilliant! :thumbup:

Any way, looks like the map may not be as large as I had imagined and as you say, I expect navigation will be easier.

Your feedback is very much appreciated. I will sign off for now and leave you in peace.

Salute and good luck.

Talisman

Thank you Racoon. I was really concerned about the size of the map and having it limited to the size of the kneeboard and the map being very limited in detail. If possible, a print ready map would be brilliant! :thumbup:

 

Any way, looks like the map may not be as large as I had imagined and as you say, I expect navigation will be easier.

 

Your feedback is very much appreciated. I will sign off for now and leave you in peace.

 

Salute and good luck.

 

Talisman

It will be large enough, me thinks.

Some people wanted Germany to be included also. Its just too much work for now, and we need this map to be out now sooooo badly!!

Hi Talisman,

 

Not sure I understand your question properly, because we have kneeboard for in-flight use. It has two positions: on the pilot's knee in cockpit and as 2D image in right side of the monitor. Flying with the kneeboard is very easy. Plus mission maker could add any landmarks on it. Please tell me more about your idea. With reference links if possible.

And yes the map will be most authentic as possible.

I meant to say that the key point Talisman is trying to make is that the map style we have is fine but we would like it to be framed inside the cockpit view, like the kneeboard is. The problem with the kneeboard is that it is too small and only has only static images.

The problem with the kneeboard is that it is too small and only has only static images.

I don't think there was room in a WW2 cockpit for a cartoonist to continually re-draw the maps reflecting the current tactical or positional situation, so why would having only static displays on a small kneeboard be a problem?

The size issue would be very easily resolved by printing out a map, and having that available when you fly. Also, you have the facility to enlarge the display of the kneeboard using the freely available kneeboard builder app, so even using VR, the solution to chart access isn't going to be a problem.

I also suspect that with an area of operations like Normandy, the pilots soon got a grip with landmarks, and relied on dead reckoning to ingress, ground fixes over the battle area, and dead reckoning to get home again. Once landfall was made, using ground fixes would soon deal with any drift errors.

When you fly 3 sorties a day for the duration of the campaign, and you know that the sea is North of the battle zone, picking out a landmark wouldn't be a huge consideration.

I don't think there was room in a WW2 cockpit for a cartoonist to continually re-draw the maps reflecting the current tactical or positional situation, so why would having only static displays on a small kneeboard be a problem?

 

The size issue would be very easily resolved by printing out a map, and having that available when you fly. Also, you have the facility to enlarge the display of the kneeboard using the freely available kneeboard builder app, so even using VR, the solution to chart access isn't going to be a problem.

 

I also suspect that with an area of operations like Normandy, the pilots soon got a grip with landmarks, and relied on dead reckoning to ingress, ground fixes over the battle area, and dead reckoning to get home again. Once landfall was made, using ground fixes would soon deal with any drift errors.

 

When you fly 3 sorties a day for the duration of the campaign, and you know that the sea is North of the battle zone, picking out a landmark wouldn't be a huge consideration.

Well you touch on an important point. In RL, in-cockpit, it was possible to fold/refold a map of sufficient scale to be useful. I use kneeboard builder to give a larger kneeboard and it is very helpful with airfield charts. Even so the range of info covered by the kneeboard (all airfields x 2) already means constant paging through to find what you want. I have even re-sorted the kneeboard airfield maps into alphabetical order for easier searching (have to replace again with each update!) and added custom aircraft pages but the idea of putting the map on the kneeboard in fixed pages just won't work, the kneeboard workload would be impossible. We do currently get detail for the take-off field, those three map shots, but it's all you get and you can't change it or move it ('re-fold') on the fly.

And a printed map? Of all that territory on a useable scale? It would have to be several A2/A3 sheets from hi-res files I suppose but not useable with Rift (my next big thing) and not very practical with the limited room available due to multi-screens, keyboard, mouse pad, etc., things you don't have getting in the way in a real cockpit.

I don't think there was room in a WW2 cockpit for a cartoonist to continually re-draw the maps reflecting the current tactical or positional situation, so why would having only static displays on a small kneeboard be a problem?

 

The size issue would be very easily resolved by printing out a map, and having that available when you fly. Also, you have the facility to enlarge the display of the kneeboard using the freely available kneeboard builder app, so even using VR, the solution to chart access isn't going to be a problem.

 

I also suspect that with an area of operations like Normandy, the pilots soon got a grip with landmarks, and relied on dead reckoning to ingress, ground fixes over the battle area, and dead reckoning to get home again. Once landfall was made, using ground fixes would soon deal with any drift errors.

 

When you fly 3 sorties a day for the duration of the campaign, and you know that the sea is North of the battle zone, picking out a landmark wouldn't be a huge consideration.

The thing is Neil, the in-cockpit map is too small with not enough detail. For example, flying a low level (being low reduces the visibility range of the geography you are flying over) under the radar strike mission of say 30 minutes or more to target, using dog-leg indirect routing to avoid concentrations of anti aircraft batteries, enemy air bases and interception by fighters, by coming from an unexpected direction with the element of surprise (also flying home by another route) needs a map that is good enough for the task and one that does not fill the whole screen and leave you flying blind when it is opened.

Of course, if we want the arcade version of a map that we currently have on the DCS kneeboard in terms of being able to press a key and our position/icon on the map appears as if by miracle, then we won't have so much of a problem.

However, I am suggesting the exact opposite of an arcade map. I am asking for a map that we can use to actually navigate ourselves without resorting to the crutch of having an icon constantly able to show our position on the map. A map with enough detail to navigate properly and historically.

Also, please note that I am not asking for the in-cockpit map to be continually re-drawn to reflect something that has changed on the ground since take-off. I would just like the map to be detailed and the same as the main map set by the host server on MP; I would like us to be able to reduce the boarder size of the map (as if folding it) and be able to magnify the area I am interested in on the fly to simulated holding it nearer, like using a real map. The Mustang and Jug have long legs for strike missions, as do the Mosquito, Lancaster and many other WWII aircraft in the pipeline.

I hope this helps to clarify were I am coming from. It is better to think of these issues now, rather than later when it will be too much trouble to change map functions. It seems to me that we need to put a WWII head on to think about this map, rather than copy and paste from current DCS systems that were not designed with WWII in mind.

To actually get to a target to be effective and survive to get home in WWII needed navigation skills and a map much better than the likes of what we currently have depicted on the DCS kneeboard. Navigation is part of flying. If we are not going to simulate the challenges of WWII navigation then we will be missing a large part of combat simulation.

I would like to see DCS WWII fulfill its potential for combat operations across the board, not just arcade air-quake and base vulching or make-do intercepts with an air-start. There is just so much potential for DCS WWII on all sorts of fronts :)

Happy landings,

Talisman

The thing is Neil, the in-cockpit map is too small with not enough detail. For example, flying a low level (being low reduces the visibility range of the geography you are flying over) under the radar strike mission of say 30 minutes or more to target, using dog-leg indirect routing to avoid concentrations of anti aircraft batteries, enemy air bases and interception by fighters, by coming from an unexpected direction with the element of surprise (also flying home by another route) needs a map that is good enough for the task and one that does not fill the whole screen and leave you flying blind when it is opened.

Of course, if we want the arcade version of a map that we currently have on the DCS kneeboard in terms of being able to press a key and our position/icon on the map appears as if by miracle, then we won't have so much of a problem.

 

However, I am suggesting the exact opposite of an arcade map. I am asking for a map that we can use to actually navigate ourselves without resorting to the crutch of having an icon constantly able to show our position on the map. A map with enough detail to navigate properly and historically.

 

Also, please note that I am not asking for the in-cockpit map to be continually re-drawn to reflect something that has changed on the ground since take-off. I would just like the map to be detailed and the same as the main map set by the host server on MP; I would like us to be able to reduce the boarder size of the map (as if folding it) and be able to magnify the area I am interested in on the fly to simulated holding it nearer, like using a real map. The Mustang and Jug have long legs for strike missions, as do the Mosquito, Lancaster and many other WWII aircraft in the pipeline.

 

I hope this helps to clarify were I am coming from. It is better to think of these issues now, rather than later when it will be too much trouble to change map functions. It seems to me that we need to put a WWII head on to think about this map, rather than copy and paste from current DCS systems that were not designed with WWII in mind.

 

To actually get to a target to be effective and survive to get home in WWII needed navigation skills and a map much better than the likes of what we currently have depicted on the DCS kneeboard. Navigation is part of flying. If we are not going to simulate the challenges of WWII navigation then we will be missing a large part of combat simulation.

 

I would like to see DCS WWII fulfill its potential for combat operations across the board, not just arcade air-quake and base vulching or make-do intercepts with an air-start. There is just so much potential for DCS WWII on all sorts of fronts :)

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

+1 :thumbup:

maby something like in Cliffs of Dover or even the old 1946? I would like to have a kneeboard like we have now in DCS, with a map like 1946/ Cliffs of Dover. I dont need maps of the base i take off from, because one little sightseeing on the ground with my FW190 and than a baseround and i know all i need to know where i have to go at the base.

Hopefully we get a good WW2 sim and not an acarde ......, because we dont have mutch to fly in WW2 as a sim and make DCS WW2 dieing,because of this acarde BS would be bad.

regards

Little_D

I think ED will try and offer both I would hope, newcomers might need navigation help and such. Of course most of us will want hardcore 1944's navigation and such. Same as their Flight models and such that offer arcade versions and other helpers.

If they want arcade go play warthunder :thumbup:

As much as i would love more modules im happy to study what i have and still learning, Im interested into what A.I units (Aircraft) They will add.

It all takes money, and a larger customer base helps that, so don't chase anyone off to another game, lets keep them here ;)

The ammount i spend in DCS they will be just fine hehe

RAF WWII historical map. USAF also used British maps.

http://www.8thafhsoregon.com/archive/Oregon-Chapter/Lawrence-Fick/Straight-of-Dover-aerial-map-February-1944.jpg

If you zoom in you can see the sort of detail we need. Note contour lines around high ground and numbers giving the height if hills, etc.

Spitfire, Mustang, Thunderbolt, all had map boxes built into the cockpit as part of the fixtures and fittings.

RAF WWII historical map. USAF also used British maps.

 

http://www.8thafhsoregon.com/archive/Oregon-Chapter/Lawrence-Fick/Straight-of-Dover-aerial-map-February-1944.jpg

 

If you zoom in you can see the sort of detail we need. Note contour lines around high ground and numbers giving the height if hills, etc.

 

Spitfire, Mustang, Thunderbolt, all had map boxes built into the cockpit as part of the fixtures and fittings.

My town and the local airbase is not on the map :(

But a town close by is that I visited a few months ago to see the memorial to a Lancaster that crashed there on the 21st June 1944.

Lancaster As, the town is marked as Asch on the map

There is a book written about the flight by one of the crew that survived "Jump or Die" by F/O Douglas Jennings.

I would appreciate a new in-cockpit-map. I gave up using the current kneeboard map, because it's just too bad. I flew the entire Huey campaign with only using the kneeboard map for navigating (besides radio navigation if available). It worked, but was pretty inconvenient, so I now shifted to the F-10 map for navigation (with units beeing shown disabled, which is not the case on most MP servers sadly :()

There are three main problems I have with the kneeboard map:

- Bad quality: It's very dificult to recognize stuff (roads, rivers, power lanes, ...) on the kneeboard map. Not just because of its size and resolution, but especially because of the way it is drawn.

- Small snippet: The kneeboard map only covers the planned flight route and its sourroundings, but often I need to operate outside of that area (or there is no flight plan at all) which leaves me without a in cockpit-map.

- Missing parts of the flight plan: The kneeboard pages are focused on the waypoints. If there is a long distance between one waypoint and the next it can happen, that a part of this distance is not covered by the knee board.

A new in-cockpit-map that would eliminate these problems, while still beeing realistic would be really welcome :)

muahaha, kneeboard maps only and get rid of ctrl-k.

:renske: