The Air Battle over Normandy

The brief answer is none - there were several delays with the 605D series engine development - the production was to start in July, and perhaps some air frames were made, but the DB plants in Genshagen received damage in the summer and that delayed engine production. The first 15 Ks rolled out in September, from there a steady 200 were produced every month in Regensburg.

Because of the delays of 605D the Germans produced several stopgap solutions for a high altitude 109, i.e. G-5/6/14/AS series from the spring of 1944, which are not too dissimilar from our K. Practically the same high altitude engine, same 1800ish max horsepower, a tad lighter but also a tad slower. Heinz Knoke's book mentions flying the first of these. These are pretty valid for Normandy.

In any case, as it is now, a "proper" Normandy map would have only one aicraft flyable, the Spitfire IX, when it comes out. Even our P-51D in a variant that appeared somwhere between October 44 / March 1945...

It still doesn't relate to how many were available for the D-Day campaign, which really ended with the Falaise gap being closed on 21st August 1944. That single event distinctly marks the end of the Battle for Normandy, and resulted in catastrophic losses to the German army.

 

Knowing what was available in October is hardly relevant to the Normandy theatre of operations, as by then fighting was all but over in that phase of the conquest of Europe.

 

Even the Battle of Arnhem was over before October, so knowing how many K4s were around in October has absolutely no impact during the air battle over Normandy.

 

How many were available to the Luftwaffe from say January 1944 until the beginning of September?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to get anything excluded, I'm just, as previously stated, interested in the history of the campaign. We have the modules we have, and we're getting the ones we're getting, so they're what we'll be flying.

+1 Exactly

With this scenario the spitfire IXc-e and Typhoon were the main aircraft of the RAF over the continent.

Interesting information.

Does any one have at hand how many Tempest and XIV were in the same period? And how many 51s and 47s?

In any case, as it is now, a "proper" Normandy map would have only one aicraft flyable, the Spitfire IX, when it comes out. Even our P-51D in a variant that appeared somwhere between October 44 / March 1945...

Thank you for finally agreeing with me :thumbup:

Interesting information.

Does any one have at hand how many Tempest and XIV were in the same period? And how many 51s and 47s?

During this period the majority of Tempest and XIV were in ADGB addressing the threat of flying bombs as they had the speed to catch them, it was only around September that they started to transfer to the 2nd TAF.

During this period the majority of Tempest and XIV were in ADGB addressing the threat of flying bombs as they had the speed to catch them, it was only around September that they started to transfer to the 2nd TAF.

He means to say 2 Tempest Squadrons with perhaps two dozen aircraft if they are lucky and receive a full compliment of aircraft, with a 3rd struggling to get enough Tempest deliveries so operates as an odd mix of Tempest/Spitfire9 unit, and they see nada action against the Luftwaffe until October. ;)

Interesting information.

Does any one have at hand how many Tempest and XIV were in the same period? And how many 51s and 47s?

No Tempests were in service that early in the European campaign (up to the end of August 1944), and the XIV as far as I can tell (and this isn't by any means authoritative) were only in use in Recce units - and in RAF Service that means they were completely unarmed I suspect.

So neither airframe has any impact whatsoever on the Normandy campaign. They simply weren't in use in fighter squadrons, period.

Because of the delays of 605D the Germans produced several stopgap solutions for a high altitude 109, i.e. G-5/6/14/AS series from the spring of 1944, which are not too dissimilar from our K. Practically the same high altitude engine, same 1800ish max horsepower, a tad lighter but also a tad slower. Heinz Knoke's book mentions flying the first of these. These are pretty valid for Normandy.

 

In any case, as it is now, a "proper" Normandy map would have only one aicraft flyable, the Spitfire IX, when it comes out. Even our P-51D in a variant that appeared somwhere between October 44 / March 1945...

I'd say then that the K4 isn't that out of place in regards to performance characteristics if there were stop gap models in service in the period from June - August 1944.

It would of course be really cool to have more variants of the 109 and 190 available at some point. They will no doubt be along some time in the not too distant future.

He means to say 2 Tempest Squadrons with perhaps two dozen aircraft if they are lucky and receive a full compliment of aircraft, with a 3rd struggling to get enough Tempest deliveries so operates as an odd mix of Tempest/Spitfire9 unit, and they see nada action against the Luftwaffe until October. ;)

2nd TAF Tempest Squadrons

3 Squadron - April 1944

56 Squadron - June 1944

80 Squadron - August 1944

274 Squadron - August 1944

486 - April 1944

I'd say then that the K4 isn't that out of place in regards to performance characteristics if there were stop gap models in service in the period from June - August 1944.

 

It would of course be really cool to have more variants of the 109 and 190 available at some point. They will no doubt be along some time in the not too distant future.

I would disagree as the source below shows.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

The K4 was quite a bit faster than the G5 and G6.

Bf109G-14/AS a/c didn't begin coming off the production line til Sept '44.

Neil, if the Spit 14 was only used for recon, however did they manage to shoot down V-1s?

Bf109G-14/AS a/c didn't begin coming off the production line til Sept '44.

 

Neil, if the Spit 14 was only used for recon, however did they manage to shoot down V-1s?

Both the Tempest and XIV was part of ADGB attacking V-1's and this also meant performing operational sweeps over the continent.

That one isn't a "source", unfortunately.

That one isn't a "source", unfortunately.

According to whom, it uses official documents, I have poured over these documents regarding one of my favourite aircraft the Dora-9 and it was in order.

I was just quoting the orbat for Normandy which was in the 2TAF books. There were contradictory accounts of whether they were or weren't in front line service as fighters during the Normandy campaign, some sources say yes, others say not.

Even if they were present, they were in much smaller numbers than the IX, which is what really matters. So the representative Spitfire for Normandy is still the IX. That's the crux of it.

I'd say then that the K4 isn't that out of place in regards to performance characteristics if there were stop gap models in service in the period from June - August 1944.

 

It would of course be really cool to have more variants of the 109 and 190 available at some point. They will no doubt be along some time in the not too distant future.

Indeed. The G-something/AS variants, as well as the later G-10 (which had the same 605D as the K) were all rated around 560 km/h at SL and 690 km/h at 7500m with MW boost, or roughly 20 km/h slower than the K, but also about a hundred kg lighter. Here's a trial of a G-6/AS w. MW. http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109G_DB-G6AS_wMW/DB_109G6_ASM.html

The stopgap /AS ones came into being at around March/April 1944 and were continued to be produced till the end of the war parallel to the K because it did not require retooling the airframe plants.

A G-14 would be nice, but I am not sure we are getting it.

We can only dream I guess Kurfurst.

Not having the Emil and Gustav at some point would be a travesty, but we all know the lead time for modules, so I have a feeling we may need to be very patient indeed.

I was just quoting the orbat for Normandy which was in the 2TAF books. There were contradictory accounts of whether they were or weren't in front line service as fighters during the Normandy campaign, some sources say yes, others say not.

 

Even if they were present, they were in much smaller numbers than the IX, which is what really matters. So the representative Spitfire for Normandy is still the IX. That's the crux of it.

Agreed.

This is precisely what I am saying about the Kurfust it simply is the wrong aircraft for "Normandy" however when it comes to September 1944 the Tempest and XIV were around in numbers and growing, one reason they weren't a huge amount is because by the time they were back in the continent the air war was largely over.

The Bf 109G5AS and G6AS weren't that much faster than the Spitfire IX unlike the K4.

however when it comes to December 1944 the Tempest and XIV were around in numbers and growing

Nope, quite simply they weren't. There were tiny little numbers of both types around, around 1/6 that of the IX and Typhoon squadrons in operation. Although proportionally they probably had a larger share of air-to-air action then their numbers suggest, becasue the latter two were increasingly used for ground support, but that was still very smalltime. IIRC the XIVs and Tempest made about 150-150 claims each against Luftwaffe aircraft, in the entire war. Maybe actually shoot down half or perhaps 2/3s of that, given the nature fighter pilot claims.

To put that into perspective, in the combat between the USAAF and the Luftwaffe on the 2nd November 1944, on that day alone the LW lost some 130 fighter aircaft. During Bodenplatte they lost some 300 and so on.

Compared to what was going on in the skies in 1944 over Western Europe, the combats by Tempest and XIVs was an interesting footnote in that story.

I'd say the Tempest and XIV are not needed for Normandy either.

The Kurfurst and Dora are all we have right now, for better or for worse, and as such, we have no choice about fighting them. Clearly, some choices were foist upon ED as they inherited the modules from the 3rd party developers, so there isn't much to do or say about them.

The IX is the perfect Normandy machine, it will be at a disadvantage in 1-1 engagements with either of it's opponents, but really, there should be 20 - 1 odds in it's favour if we are to fight Normandy realistically. So, if you can kill 1 enemy aircraft in 10 sorties, you are ahead of the game.

Thing is, the IX was the mainstay aircraft over Normandy AND the Battle of the Bulge as well (at least as far RAF fighters go, forgetting about the USAAF for a second), it happened to have had a rather long service life and met anything from F-4s to K-4s.

I'd say the Tempest and XIV are not needed for Normandy either.

 

The Kurfurst and Dora are all we have right now, for better or for worse, and as such, we have no choice about fighting them. Clearly, some choices were foist upon ED as they inherited the modules from the 3rd party developers, so there isn't much to do or say about them.

 

The IX is the perfect Normandy machine, it will be at a disadvantage in 1-1 engagements with either of it's opponents, but really, there should be 20 - 1 odds in it's favour if we are to fight Normandy realistically. So, if you can kill 1 enemy aircraft in 10 sorties, you are ahead of the game.

Again I agree, for a Normandy map the XIV would not be appropriate however since we have the K4 we will just have to wait for the VEAO XIV as it will mitigate the problem :)

Thing is, the IX was the mainstay aircraft over Normandy AND the Battle of the Bulge as well (at least as far RAF fighters go, forgetting about the USAAF for a second), it happened to have had a rather long service life and met anything from F-4s to K-4s.

Just like the Fw190 Anton and Bf 109 G6 (When the had fuel) were the mainstay.. your point is?

Again I agree, for a Normandy map the XIV would not be appropriate however since we have the K4 we will just have to wait for the VEAO XIV as it will mitigate the problem

Yes, definitely, and hopefully it will be out before too long. I'd say that we will have all the significant late war fighters with the Jug, Mustang, IX and XVI. The Tempest would be good at some point, but it is hardly significant if we don't get it.

What we really need, as I think we can all agree, is a Gustav, and an A series 190. I'd like to see marks that were most numerous rather than the fastest bestest, which are always the most popular ones among gamers.

Since we are getting the XIV I will wait patiently for a Tempest, a Typhoon on the other hand would be very welcome :D