FoxAlfa Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) Is it just me or the AMRAAM is a bit too much smokeless in the DCS? or I know temperature, altitude, pressure etc has to do with it and this has probably been discussed before to exhaustion, but I never seen in DCS even this short smoke from the AMRAAM... Edited January 10, 2019 by FoxAlfa ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frag Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 The smoke effect was implement for the AIM-54 phoenix with the F-14 and it looks AMAZING. So I guess that Eagle Dynamics will follow on an implement it with the 120 at some point to have some consistencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 That's vapor, not smoke. Vapor effects for rocket motors are not modeled. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 That's vapor, not smoke. Vapor effects for rocket motors are not modeled. Then it's about time for them to get modelled. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Go right ahead, who's stopping you? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Go right ahead, who's stopping you? The integrity check and my non-existent access to the source code. Sorry that I stated a wish that I would like to see getting implemented by the devs... Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 We's gots no time for those excuses, boy. Get codin' 'fore things get.... unpleasant. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steele6 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Then it's about time for them to get modelled. Go right ahead, who's stopping you? Hahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Technically it shouldn't be too difficult since there is a particle system already for other missiles. Probably it would just involve tweaking the trigger to simulate the vapor and the settings of the particle emitter that is already there. But it is up to the ED to figure out their priorities, but the thing like this really would really help the 'red' side in the MP which is already sparse and declining since everybody wanting to fly the Hornet and full fidelity jets... ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I suppose it might help the red side some times. But given that atmospheric moisture content doesn't appear to be simulated at all in-game, I have my doubts that it would help (or should help) anywhere outside of contrail zones, if that. So, technically, no it's not really possible to simulate this accurately. But it is up to the ED to figure out their priorities, but the thing like this really would really help the 'red' side in the MP which is already sparse and declining since everybody wanting to fly the Hornet and full fidelity jets... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 I suppose it might help the red side some times. But given that atmospheric moisture content doesn't appear to be simulated at all in-game, I have my doubts that it would help (or should help) anywhere outside of contrail zones, if that. So, technically, no it's not really possible to simulate this accurately. If you check both videos, neither of the planes are contrailing, since the missile burns at a higher temperature it will generate contrails/vapor at a much lower altitude. At since, in my humble experience, most of the engagements on PG Blue Flag start near contrail altitude of 6000-8500m where it would help a lot with launch detection. And once Hornet gets TWS I think it will become vital. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I also checked videos where no contrails are produced. The smokeless motor is there because it is an advantage. It's not going away just because it may be helpful in some cases to some people. The entire point is to deny you that vital launch detection (it's really not that vital IMHO) and degrade your SA. And I doubt that ED will implement it without having a proper simulation framework around it either, but who knows. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 I also checked videos where no contrails are produced. The smokeless motor is there because it is an advantage. It's not going away just because it may be helpful in some cases to some people. The entire point is to deny you that vital launch detection (it's really not that vital IMHO) and degrade your SA. And I doubt that ED will implement it without having a proper simulation framework around it either, but who knows. Ok, just to clarify. Nobody is saying to change the smokeless motor in the one with the smokes to give the advantage to the 'red' players since that would not have to do anything with the reality. The proposal is that to apply the contrailing/vapor effects (for which there is already a framework for planes) to the missiles with the wider altitude range like in reality, in the end, making a better and more realistic simulation. And I do respect your opinion, but I would love to hear EDs opinion on this also. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon_S Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 "Smokeless" in DCS is gift from God. They will not ruin it with some simulations of contrailing/vapor effects. Quote Немој ништа силом, узми већи чекић! MSI Tomahawk MAX | Ryzen 7 3700x | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz | RX 5700 XT OC Red Dragon 8GB | VPC Throttle CM3 + VPC Constellation ALPHA on VPC WarBRD Base | HP Reverb G2 Youtube | Follow Me on TWITCH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 And I respect yours but I don't agree with it: The simulation of contrails in DCS is on/off. There are no parameters other than altitude ... well, to be clear my disagreement is this: I doubt that ED will do this, because to simulate it correctly you would need some sort of moisture content modelling. Depending on how that's done, it might require re-tuning all FMs as well. Given that missiles may or may not produce contrails (there are plenty of videos where they do not), on/off just takes away from what there is. The proposal is that to apply the contrailing/vapor effects (for which there is already a framework for planes) to the missiles with the wider altitude range like in reality, in the end, making a better and more realistic simulation. And I do respect your opinion, but I would love to hear EDs opinion on this also. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Noted, take it from a former medical simulator/shader programmer, you would be surprised how many stuff in simulations is just on and off since it is "close enough for government work" otherwise everybody would have 5 fps ;) ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I believe you :D I went looking through contrail prediction stuff in the meantime. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAW_Blaze Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 In unrelated news I wonder when we'll get actual weather systems and their effect on IR seekers modeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 And I guess for F-18 intake ice, vapour over wings, wing vortex effects... we do not need some sort of moisture content modeling. They don't. It's just going by temperature, and frankly other than over-wing vapors (which don't make you more/less detectable) the only effect is whether you turn your pitot tube de-ice on/off. And I'm with blaze, I'd like heat seekers to have limited sight into/through clouds or precipitation first. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow KT Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 and I want proper SAM fuzes and warheads + them and AA missiles fuzes working in MP more reliably, but hey... we can't have it all. We will still have invisible to radar choppers, which can trash heat seeking missiles and radar missiles by not doing anything and fire off AA missiles which have greater range than heat seekers fired from fighters and a bunch of other stuff.... Not to mention even other modules, some of which also french... 'Shadow' Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_coreSix Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 The simulation of contrails in DCS is on/off. There are no parameters other than altitude It takes into account temperature as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vatikus Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Some data for smokeless motor contrails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFire Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 As far as I'm aware DCS used the standard meteorological conditions for atmospheric modelling. The 'standard model' makes assumptions about density, sea level pressure, temperature and viscosity but does not include any assumption regarding humidity. I would imagine that the contrail on / off variance that we see in-game is due to some very simplistic homogeneous altitude-invariant humidity value, hence contrail altitude is simply a function of temperature as far as the game is concerned. Like FoxAlpha said, close enough for government work without having to ask NASA if they have a spare computer we can borrow to get above 1 fps. System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit. Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 NASA and USAF have research papers on the matter. It turns out that it's reasonably simple on the surface, though a bit probabilistic in some regimes. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawker77 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I'm in agreement with the OP. I did some work and gave myself smoking AMRAAMs and Sidewinders. I'm much happier now as it was driving me nuts not to be able to enjoy the beauty of this sim with such frequently used missiles from the F-15C. I fly offline so it's not affecting anything in the online world. I know this will piss off lots of people who want their sims totally REAL - but hey, I'm having a blast and do this for my own enjoyment. If anyone wants a copy of what I did, PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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