Jumo-213A for Dora

As a 109 driver I'm thinking they'll be in for something of a shock meeting a properly modelled 109k4 which was just as fast, had better weapons and could outclimb them by a 1000ft a minute. Then the real whinning will start :)

Except that what you're saying is not true...again I might add...

Let's compare both planes at their best performance, 109 at 1.98 ata (and this is introduced very late 1944, early 1945) and the Mustang using 150 grade fuel (since the middle of 1944).

Climb tests for 109K-4 (note: thick lines depict level speed with improved VDM 12 199 propellor. For perfromance with serial production VDM 12 159 propellor - or "Serienschrb", see thin lines):

And compare it with this:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51B_24777_Climb.jpg

Manufacturer's Tests

There are also other tests you can find but all of them show these aircraft were very similar in climb rates after the introduction of 150 grade fuel.

As for speed, the 'stang should be slightly faster on 150 Octane fuel, 375 to 388 mph with or without wing racks and depending on the test compared to 375 by the 109.

It seems you like the 109 a lot, which is good, because it was a fine aircraft and should be fun to fly in the sim, but you seem to seriously overestimate its performance or underestimate that of the allied aircraft. I don't know if your mistake was deliberate or because you have not read the tests chart carefully but I assume you looked at the climb rate test for the Mustang at 60.5 available here http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html instead of checking other performance tests and MP used.

Anyway, it might shock you but your claim of 109 outclimbing the Mustang by 1000 feet is a bit ridiculous to be honest and it'd be best if we dicussed comparing real test data and not how you feel your favourite plane should perform in comparison to others...

PS. It's going to be a similar case with the Spitfire, which, if it's gonna be using 150 grade fuel, will be only slightly slower than 109K but will be able to outclimb it by a fair margin with some tests showing a climb rate of over 5000 ft/min.

PS2. Thanks Julian, I did not want to write in this topic again as it might cause another flamewar but thanks for correcting some of the stuff posted here.

Let's compare both planes at their best performance, 109 at 1.98 ata (and this is introduced very late 1944, early 1945) and the Mustang using 150 grade fuel (since the middle of 1944).

One staffel with II./JG11 in 1944 and then withdrawn. Not officially cleared for use til late March 1945.

One staffel with II./JG11 in 1944 and then withdrawn. Not officially cleared for use til late March 1945.

Well, I wanted to be "generous" because if I compared the 150 octane pony to 1.8 ata 109 only (as both planed were mostly used in late 1944) the Mustang's advantage would be quite visible both in speed and climb rate and that might cause a heart attack for some people :)

But here goes 1.8 ata then:

Level speeds (note: thick lines depict level speed with improved VDM 12 199 propellor. For perfromance with serial production VDM 12 159 propellor - or "Serienschrb", see thin lines).

Climb rates :

About 150 octane fuel, there is also a question is it 8th or 9th Air Force planes that are modelled, right? I have understood that 8th started using 150 octane fuel much earlier than 9th, or am I mistaken?

About 150 octane fuel, there is also a question is it 8th or 9th Air Force planes that are modelled, right? I have understood that 8th started using 150 octane fuel much earlier than 9th, or am I mistaken?

Sure, that's why an option in the editor whether to use 150 octane fuel or not for the Mustang and Spirfire MkIX and 1,8-1,98 ata for the 109 would be best. Then you could make missions correct for the time period/squadron etc.

The whole affair is not really related to Jumo 213 thread though... why not create seperate thread to discuss comparative advantages of planes etc.?

Well, I wanted to be "generous" because if I compared the 150 octane pony to 1.8 ata 109 only (as both planed were mostly used in late 1944) the Mustang's advantage would be quite visible both in speed and climb rate and that might cause a heart attack for some people :)

Yes be sure there would be some that would get their knockers in a knot.:yes:

Yes, you are alredy dealing with fouling and not only at idle... :)

Ha! Awesome

@MM

It is quite obvious that late in the war the German effort was hampered and

thus the engineering and development wasn't on par with the allies.

Statements from Günther Rall amongst others make it clear that the only

planes that were equal to or better (depending on tactics and pilot) were

the 190D model, Ta190 and the Me262. So as a axis flyer you'd have to

adopt the tactics against the P51 or the Jug.

@MM

It is quite obvious that late in the war the German effort was hampered and

thus the engineering and development wasn't on par with the allies.

Statements from Günther Rall amongst others make it clear that the only

planes that were equal to or better (depending on tactics and pilot) were

the 190D model, Ta190 and the Me262. So as a axis flyer you'd have to

adopt the tactics against the P51 or the Jug.

By Ta190, you mean Ta152?

The only viable a/c is the Dora. The Ta152H was still being debugged and the Me262 was OK but still had issues.

At least the odds won't be 10>20 : 1 against the P-51/P47.

Complete Jumo 213A Handbuch of May 1944, via the Polish Archives:

http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/1197

Junkers Triebweksanlage 9-8013 B-2 1943 (Jumo 213 "power-egg") manual (in development) from September 1943.

http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/872

Curious, what would be needed to be added in the modeling of this engine, that would cause the engine to smoke on start/warm up. Such things as very cold outside temperature and a very rich engine condition should smoke, as seen in the real world, but I don't see it in our P-51, for example...does this mean that the Merlin is not modeled 100% accurate on oil getting past the rings while the engine is cold and clearances greater than when normal operating temperature?

Yea, I was just curious as to the why, but from what I have seen of P47 startups, that baby smoked

Yea, I was just curious as to the why, but from what I have seen of P47 startups, that baby smoked

All radials smoke on start up due to oil leakage past the rings into the bottom cylinders. It is also why radials are pulled thru to get rid of any excess oil that might cause a hydraulic lock.

On V-12s, the 'smoke' would be a dark colour from excess fuel (rich mixture) while the radial 'smoke' is white from the oil.

DB and Jumo engine info (if it hasn't already been posted)

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/daimler-benz.shtml

Gone past attachment limit so temporarily removed: (Jumo 213A Manual, effective December 1943:)

Thanks Friedrich :)

Hey a question to the devs....Is the Jumo coming with its own sound? Or will it use the Merlins engine sound?

:) Thanks im just happy to read that :)

Thanks Friedrich :)

 

Hey a question to the devs....Is the Jumo coming with its own sound? Or will it use the Merlins engine sound?

from lots of research estimate my mod sounds close to the jumo.

can hear it in this video, beautiful jumo sound.

Isnt that actually a DB 605 just Played faster. I still remember how this sound was done ;)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110029

Should be close to the original. But im still interested how ED´s Jumo will sound.