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NS 430 VLOC on the L39.


Ernstxic

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Hi, I'm not sure if its here where I have to ask this but, at some point, will we be able to use VLOC with the HSI of the L39? I know its on 'Early Access' stage but I couldn't find info about that feature being simulated with the L39 systems but maybe I'm just really bad at finding things and I tried a couple of times setting a VOR instead of using RSBN, but it seemed like it didn't even work as a VOR receiver and the instruments of the aircraft ignored the 430 as if it was some GPS device with no connection with the aircraft itself. Does anybody know something? If it won't be possible then, it is a bit useless and worthless.

 

I would love to use the equipment as we use it in real life and practice instrument procedures with the Albatros at the NTTR. I hope its just a missing function at this time —or that I don't know how to use it correctly.

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  • 2 weeks later...

No idea if there is a plan in the works to display 430 nav data on the ship's RMI/HSI.

 

That said, I don't own the integrated 430 for the L39, but I believe an installation that would allow it to communicate with the existing RMI/HSI (if that would be possible) would also require a switch to be modeled in the cockpit to select input from either the RSBN-5S or the 430. At least if you want to maintain usability of both radios. I do agree that such a feature would be welcome.

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Fair enough. How does the HSI know if you want it to display RSBN nav data or 430 nav data?

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Okay, but it hamstrings the airplane. What if you do a cross country training sortie from A to B in weather where A has RSBN and B is served by ILS? Or battle damage shreds the RSBN, but the recovery field has a GPS approach? Solar flare knocks GPS down to unusable (doesn't happen in DCS but is a consideration)?

 

If the aircraft has the means to receive different types of navigation signals best shown on an HSI it shouldn't give one up to exclusively display the other. When panel mounted GPS units first started getting installed, the solution to make them play nice with a navigation radio was a switchlight that usually read "GPS / NAV" or something to that effect to choose the source of data for the HSI. That is the most realistic and most sensible choice here.


Edited by tom_19d
phrasing clarification

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If the aircraft has the means to receive different types of navigation signals best shown on an HSI it shouldn't give one up to exclusively display the other.

The KPI-552 fitted to a westernised L-39ZA /ZO is very different to the PRGM/RSBN RMI fitted to DCS's L-39's.

When panel mounted GPS units first started getting installed, the solution to make them play nice with a navigation radio was a switchlight that usually read "GPS / NAV" or something to that effect to choose the source of data for the HSI. That is the most realistic and most sensible choice here.

What you are asking for is unrealistic, L-39's are westernised to be compatible with ILS, VOR, etc. and have additional or substitute transponders and radios for the same reasons.

 

BST has made a choice to model a "legacy" 70's equipment spec. L-39 typical of the era, rather than a modern westernised version with different spec's/cockpit instruments.

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What you are asking for is unrealistic

 

I’m not the OP. I never asked for anything. Did you read the whole thread? Since I’m not an avionics technician by trade but quite sure the 430 cant interface with the existing HSI I said this earlier

 

allow it to communicate with the existing RMI/HSI (if that would be possible)

 

If you had read the whole thread before jumping on me maybe you could have realized that we are in agreement with what is actually possible with the L39, I was just trying to get there with the original posters through discussion, rather than coming right out and saying they are asking for something unrealistic. I was the one pointing out the whole way through why the 430 doesn’t suddenly start showing you ILS needles just because it is in the panel and turned on.

 

Also the link you sent is irrelevant. As if someone who bought an L39 and wants to “westernize” it would have just one choice of HSI. Please.

 

All that said @Ramsay, thanks for all your work trying to run down and report the TACAN issues DCS is experiencing in your other thread.

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Also the link you sent is irrelevant. As if someone who bought an L39 and wants to “westernize” it would have just one choice of HSI. Please.

 

I'm not sure on FAA restrictions re: modification and type approval but IIRC AERO Vodochody did 'set' levels of aviation upgrade, with compatible and pre-approved western equipment and example type approval forms.

 

I'm not sure if the original manufacture/approved agent sales brochure/web page, is still up.

 

So referenced a Canadian L-39 ZA fitted with a GNS530 as changes beyond it's westernisation in Romania were documented i.e. additional wiring, US Oxygen regulator, etc.

 

Once an airframe has approval, I think it's easier to add further upgrades i.e. a glass cockpit, etc. through approved agents and as you say, become even less standardised.

 

https://www.code1aviation.com/avionics


Edited by Ramsay
Correct some errors i.e. the L-39ZA is Canadian and westernisation including the GNS530 was done in Romania

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Okay, but it hamstrings the airplane. What if you do a cross country training sortie from A to B in weather where A has RSBN and B is served by ILS? Or battle damage shreds the RSBN, but the recovery field has a GPS approach? Solar flare knocks GPS down to unusable (doesn't happen in DCS but is a conI was trying tosideration)?

 

If the aircraft has the means to receive different types of navigation signals best shown on an HSI it shouldn't give one up to exclusively display the other. When panel mounted GPS units first started getting installed, the solution to make them play nice with a navigation radio was a switchlight that usually read "GPS / NAV" or something to that effect to choose the source of data for the HSI. That is the most realistic and most sensible choice here.

 

I was trying to suggest a solution that would require minimum coding and cockpit rework. And I think once we add the 430 we can consider it a westernised non-soviet L-39. Also the 430 its self has that gps/nav button but its gps/vloc in the bottom left hand corner.


Edited by Jester986
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I'm not sure on FAA restrictions re: modification

 

Like most warbirds, the vast majority of L39s in the US are registered in the experimental category so when it comes to avionics upgrades essentially you are limited by your imagination and your checkbook. I'm not sure how it works on your side of the pond to be honest...

 

I was trying to suggest a solution that would require minimum coding and cockpit rework. And I think once we add the 430 we can consider it a westernised non-soviet L-39. Also the 430 its self has that gps/nav button but its gps/vloc in the bottom left hand corner.

 

I hear ya, I'm just saying that it probably isn't that simple. Some people might want to retain the RSBM and just have the 430 for situational awareness. If the option was set in the ME as previously suggested, how would it work in multiplayer where people have different equipment installed?

 

Yes, the CDI button on the 430 flops the VLOC/GPS setting, but that only determines what the 430 is putting out to the HSI. It assumes the HSI in question is only connected to ONE navigation source.

 

Honestly the most realistic option, considering that the L39 HSI would not be compatible with a 430, and assuming a complete panel overhaul wasn't in order, would be to find an empty place in the panel and install a simple CDI nav head. Although it complicates the instrument scan slightly, it wouldn't be anything worse than the setup hundreds of thousands earned their instrument tickets in and would be IFR legal. Such a setup would be true "integration" of the 430.

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I agree that it would definitely be a desirable feature. I also agree (sadly) that I don't really think that further cockpit edits are unlikely.

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As Tom was saying about upgrades to the L-39, it all depends on what the buyer wants. Code 1 does all kinds of different modifications, and many times, the buyer elects to keep their panel as original as possible, which includes leaving the original HSI in the aircraft. We didn't have to get into any of the main NAV channel wiring during our WAAS upgrade and ADS-B install on a ZA, so there could possibly be a happy box in between the HSI and the 530. The original Russian radio equipment has been yanked out, so it doesn't have to worry about switching back and forth between the two. I'd say it could theoretically be done though, as long as the aircraft is in the experimental category. Probably nothing a few RS08 relay boxes mounted on the shelf on the inside of the forward pressure bulkhead couldn't handle though. The only L-39 I have experience with switching multiple NAV sources on was an L-39C though, which had been completely westernized. It had a couple of GNS480s and a Sandel 3500 in it, and I ended up using 2 of those RS08s to get that to work. That one has the CDI switching being handled by the relays, along with trigger outputs from 3500. But, in the absence of that, it would need an annunciator/switch. Preferably one with LEDs in it so you don't burn your fingers when you switch back and forth. :D

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Fair enough. How does the HSI know if you want it to display RSBN nav data or 430 nav data?

 

Well, you just push the VLOC button for the HSI to display VOR frequencies or use GPS fixes and the GPS Mode doesn't use the HSI so, if we turn off the RSBN and have VLOC Mode on the 430, it should be able to display what the 430 has and, if we have the 430 in GPS Mode plus the RSBN - ON, we should be able to use RSBN frequencies.

I don't know, maybe it would be a bit unrealistic although I've seen weird things when it comes to switching options for the navigational instruments in general aviation.

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Yes, the CDI button on the 430 flops the VLOC/GPS setting, but that only determines what the 430 is putting out to the HSI. It assumes the HSI in question is only connected to ONE navigation source.

 

You can have two VOR receivers and use just one HSI or VOR instrument. Although, you have to change the radio in use, you can't use both at the same time (obviously) so in theory, it would be possible to use RSBN and VOR frequencies with a single HSI. The only problem in real life is the range of the frequency but the HSI has nothing to do with receiving it, so it doesn't matter haha - I guess.

 

Honestly the most realistic option, considering that the L39 HSI would not be compatible with a 430, and assuming a complete panel overhaul wasn't in order, would be to find an empty place in the panel and install a simple CDI nav head.

 

Aside from the esthetic, the HSI of this L39 works in the same way as the "western" HSI, so it would be possible to use the same. If you ask me, I haven't read all the FAR so I don't know if it is an obligation to use the "Western" HSI but if it isn't, using that soviet HSI with VOR wouldn't be a violation of the FAA regulations and the instrument scan remains the same.;)

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I doubt they're going to rework the cockpit anymore then they have and I want to do GPS, VOR, ILS, etc. approaches in my L-39.

 

I also agree (sadly) that I don't really think that further cockpit edits are unlikely.

 

The good thing for us is that a cockpit rework isn't completely needed. But, i have no idea of the quantity of luck we have so they do some coding with the option I mentioned before. :/

 

Jester986, what I did so I can make VOR and ILS approaches in NTTR is create some RSBN navaids above the existing ones and it worked quite well. Is not that hard if you really wanna try. ;)

Another really bad thing is that we wont be able to do IFR Procedures even if we tried in the Caucasus Map because it lacks a LOT of navaids and a couple or runways (URKG is one) are not in the real place so we cannot use current Jeppesen Charts. : (

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Well, the description says full integration with systems... So hopefully someday... Modding isn't an answer to me, given the time it took to go from the Mi-8 to the L-39 though I'm guessing it'll be awhile until they get around to that.

 

"navigation and radio communications options to supplement the navigation and radio systems already integrated into your aircraft. The NS 430 is particularly useful for older aircraft with less sophisticated navigation and communication systems."

 

"Serves as both a communications radio, navigation radio, and GPS receiver"

 

Edit: Either the language has changed or I'm miss remembering but I thought there was something about full integration with cockpit systems.

 

Further edit: Found it on the L-39 page "The NS 430 for the L-39 module integrates the NS 430 panel directly into the L-39C cockpit (not as a pop-up display). The NS 430 is fully wired into the electrical and radio systems of the L-39." I take wired into the radio systems to mean we will be able to use the navigation radios.


Edited by Jester986
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Well, you just push the VLOC button for the HSI to display VOR frequencies or use GPS fixes and the GPS Mode doesn't use the HSI

 

Directly from the RL Garmin manual: "The CDI key is used to toggle which navigation source (GPS or VLOC) provides an output to an external HSI or CDI."

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "GPS Mode doesn't use the HSI" but regardless this conversation doesn't have anything to do with the CDI button. As the Garmin manual states, the CDI button only controls what data the Garmin is pushing to the HSI.

 

The question at hand is how the HSI handles data from different nav sources and if the factory HSI is even capable of accepting output from a Garmin without modification. Eaglecash actually works on avionics and he laid out some excellent examples of L39s he has observed or worked on. In none of them did the airplane retain the Russian radio equipment and add western avionics. And in the airplane he has experience with that retained the factory HSI, he never got into the wiring between the Garmin and the HSI.

 

Aside from the esthetic, the HSI of this L39 works in the same way as the "western" HSI, so it would be possible to use the same.

 

Do you have evidence of this? Sure they look similar to the pilot but when it comes to actually plugging in the wires are you implying one could simply hook up a Garmin and it would work? Because Eaglecash said above he wasn't sure if that is the case and he does it for a living.

 

What I am saying is ED does nothing without documentation. If you can find a picture of an L39 with both a Garmin in the panel and the original RSBN, both of which can send data to the factory HSI, and have a wiring diagram of the components that were used to accomplish the retrofit, I can see progress. Like I said before, I would love to see full integration as much as the next guy, but frankly oversimplification without evidence or documentation isn't going to get the community anywhere.

 

 

Edit: Also welcome to the forum Ernstxic. There are a ton of really helpful people here, its a great community. (And one or two people like me who probably come off like a jerk most of the time, usually not meaning too haha).


Edited by tom_19d

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  • 2 weeks later...
Well, the description says full integration with systems... So hopefully someday... Modding isn't an answer to me, given the time it took to go from the Mi-8 to the L-39 though I'm guessing it'll be awhile until they get around to that.

 

"navigation and radio communications options to supplement the navigation and radio systems already integrated into your aircraft. The NS 430 is particularly useful for older aircraft with less sophisticated navigation and communication systems."

 

"Serves as both a communications radio, navigation radio, and GPS receiver"

 

Edit: Either the language has changed or I'm miss remembering but I thought there was something about full integration with cockpit systems.

 

Further edit: Found it on the L-39 page "The NS 430 for the L-39 module integrates the NS 430 panel directly into the L-39C cockpit (not as a pop-up display). The NS 430 is fully wired into the electrical and radio systems of the L-39." I take wired into the radio systems to mean we will be able to use the navigation radios.

 

Yes, modding is a bit weird and stressful but it's a temporary solution until they complete the module haha. But yes, hopefully, one day...

I read the same and I felt cheated or something like that but then, I realized that it was an Early Access so I cannot judge the product for what it is at this moment so, thinking about it, the question I asked is pointless right now. haha. Sorry.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "GPS Mode doesn't use the HSI"

 

With that, I was referring to the current 430 on the L39, not the real one.

 

In none of them did the airplane retain the Russian radio equipment and add western avionics. And in the airplane he has experience with that retained the factory HSI, he never got into the wiring between the Garmin and the HSI.

 

This is a sim which we use for entertainment man, not a training sim used in aviation so, for practical reasons, we could "oversimplify" the real wiring and just play along - as we do with the Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft.

 

Do you have evidence of this? Sure they look similar to the pilot but when it comes to actually plugging in the wires are you implying one could simply hook up a Garmin and it would work?

 

Look, I'm not an aeronautical engineer, i do not speak Czech (or whatever the hell the original manuals language is) nor i have those Czechoslovakian* documents but the same as above, this is an entertainment sim for us. It would be ok for me if they implement the 430 into the current HSI, I don't care. The only thing I care for is that it works. If they have the documents and they decide to make those changes in the cockpit that will require more work than needed, it's more than ok to me. It's just for entertainment.

 

and he does it for a living.

 

Glad I asked for this.

 

What I am saying is ED does nothing without documentation.

 

And what i am saying is that we are ok with the FC3 aircraft, this is not a training sim.

 

Like I said before, I would love to see full integration as much as the next guy, but frankly oversimplification without evidence or documentation isn't going to get the community anywhere.

 

Okay, I made a lot of mistakes here and ignored things about the sim and a lot more about this community so yes, my bad. I did not think it twice before posting that question because its pointless, the module is on Early Access. Won't do it again.

Thank you anyways.

 

Edit: Also welcome to the forum Ernstxic. There are a ton of really helpful people here, its a great community. (And one or two people like me who probably come off like a jerk most of the time, usually not meaning too haha).

 

Thank you, its good to learn something about this community and its ok, sometimes I do that too.

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