humptydumpty Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 BTW P-factor would also occur with the tail draggers during take off roll ? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Thanks for taking the time to post these essays Chief. Great reading and very much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humptydumpty Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 made 3 successful takes off but without the tail up , and almost stalled :) but i just can't seem to make the tail go up as the nose drills a hole into the ground more practice [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 BTW P-factor would also occur with the tail draggers during take off roll ? Yep, particularly on taildraggers, due to the even more pronounced difference in AoA of the downgoing prop blades... Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve303rd Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Simply(!), thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Instructor Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Yes, P factor is certainly present and a factor, though not as influential as some of the other factors, such as gyro effect. Another thing to remember is that it's good to keep your rudder and vertical stabiliser in the prop stream as much as you can for control authority, BUT... The prop-wash itself is helical in it's nature, so it tends to hit the vertical stab more on one side than the other. Yet another factor which can cause a swinging tendency! It's all fun and games :thumbup: CPU: Intel i9 13900KS @5.8GHz | MB: ROG Strix Z790 Gaming-E | GPU: Asus ROG Strix RTX3090 OC | RAM: 32Gb Corsair Dominator DDR5 @6200MHz | Cooling: Custom CPU/GPU cooling loop | PSU: Supernova 850G2 @ 850W | OS: Windows 10 Home Premium 64Bit Storage: 3x Samsung EVO 970 Plus M.2 1Tb + 3x Samsung 850 EVO SSD 250Gb | Input: TM HOTAS WH Saitek Combat Pedals | Output: Samsung 50" OLED TV | VR: HP Reverb G2 | Audio: Realtek + Z906 5.1 Surround Sound Speaker System Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekg Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Not to get too off topic but what about a tail dragger like the 190? The tail wheel has a lock which is activated by pulling back on the stick. I normally ease on it at just over half the take off speed to get the tail to "lift itself up". Should this NOT be used for the take off roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsk Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Not to get too off topic but what about a tail dragger like the 190? The tail wheel has a lock which is activated by pulling back on the stick. I normally ease on it at just over half the take off speed to get the tail to "lift itself up". Should this NOT be used for the take off roll? Well it doesn't much matter whether the tail wheel is locked if it's no longer touching the ground :-) I think your procedure of easing the stick to let the tail lift up is exactly right, and I don't think the tailwheel lock is very important when the plane is traveling at higher speeds anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Chief Instructor, thanks for very good explanation. :thumbup: It's interesting to see another technique in use here: This guy gives moderate and then increasing throttle, and keeps the tail on the ground until it lifts naturally by the speed: (Check at ) This is the technique I have had success with in the DCS Spitfire. It seems like the guy in the first link deliberately lifted the tail as early as he could (maybe to get it into the slipstream), while this last guy just let it lift itself. (Btw, Friedrich, I corrected your link: When embedding video, only include the video ID, not the whole link.) :doh: Cheers mate, like Chief's essay, it's so much clearer when it's explained properly...:thumbup: BTW: taking into account the fact that it's easier taking off on grass, perhaps it would be easier to ignore ED's runway and use the rest of the airfield? :pilotfly: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patersonski Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Great piece Chief and 30 busted Mustangs later I see what you mean Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Rig: i7-6850K, Sapphire 6900XT, 32GB RAM, Asus X99-Pro board. Gear: VPC WarBRD/MongoosT-50 Stick, VPC MongoosMT-50 Throttle, VKB T-Rudders Mk.IV Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humptydumpty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I find increasing throttle slowly helps here. no wings rocking when i do that. I try to get the tail up and manage now , but a little right aileron is necessary to counter the torque with small yaw inpouts [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Well, after reading Chief's first post, I'm having quite a bit of success with lifting the tail on t/o now. Neutral trim set, open the throttle to 8lb boost, push the stick forward to get the nose up, then around 90 - 100mph relax the forward pressure on the stick and she just lifts off maintaining direction all the time with the rudder dance.....beautiful. System :- i7-12700K 3.6 GHz 12 core, ASUS ROG Strix Z690-A Gaming, 64GB Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 3200MHz, 24GB Asus ROG Strix Geforce RTX 3090, 1x 500GB Samsung 980 PRO M.2, 1x 2TB Samsung 980 PRO M.2, Corsair 1000W RMx Series Modular 80 Plus Gold PSU, Windows 10. VIRPIL VPC WarBRD Base with HOTAS Warthog Stick and Warthog Throttle, VIRPIL ACE Interceptor Pedals, VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus Base with a Hawk-60 Grip, HP Reverb G2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisper Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 made 3 successful takes off but without the tail up , and almost stalled :) but i just can't seem to make the tail go up as the nose drills a hole into the ground more practice I just do exactly like in Sporg video, with a -1 aileron trim for takeoff. I just push super gently on the throttle, until I get around +7/+8 Boost. The tail goes up by itself, and the plane shows signs of wanting to take off by herself, at good speed, at which point I chose to do so or not, depending if I really feel it's ok :) All the while dancing on the rudder to keep everything straight. I've had zero low speed issues since, the worst that can happen is a bad dancing of rudder. Using stick for rolling is only necessary when sudden Boost changes are made during the run, when something bad is about to happen and I feel I need to speed things up (usually a bad idea, though, it often transform one problem into another one, often worse) Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth. Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind. All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humptydumpty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I just do exactly like in Sporg video, with a -1 aileron trim for takeoff. I just push super gently on the throttle, until I get around +7/+8 Boost. The tail goes up by itself, and the plane shows signs of wanting to take off by herself, at good speed, at which point I chose to do so or not, depending if I really feel it's ok :) All the while dancing on the rudder to keep everything straight. I've had zero low speed issues since, the worst that can happen is a bad dancing of rudder. Using stick for rolling is only necessary when sudden Boost changes are made during the run, when something bad is about to happen and I feel I need to speed things up (usually a bad idea, though, it often transform one problem into another one, often worse) I don't trim her now , i gently increase the thrust and keep her centered and will a little right aileron just to counter torque. But she feels easy , still more takeoffs are necessary. The 109 / 190 now feel like toys when taking off :pilotfly: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisper Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) The 190 is still a mistery for me :'( Tried to see of Spit helped, I just can't get that cat in the air consistently :cry: 109 was already ok. That said, 190 has not received the time it deserves from me, so I can't complain , I should take the time for her. Edited December 21, 2016 by Whisper Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth. Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind. All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humptydumpty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 The 190 is still a mistery for me :'( Tried to see of Spit helped, I just can't get that cat in the air consistently :cry: 109 was already ok. That said, 190 has not received the time it deserves from me, so I can't complain , I should take the time for her. I do this for the 190. Right aileron , little right yaw , increase thrust to 1.3 ata after a few secs 1.5 ata , keep her centered , when the speed reaches 100-110 get the stick to neutral and she will dip her nose a little and go up. I had big trouble with her earlier , the torque was always getting me. The rudder deflection during the take off run is similar to the spit i think. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Instructor Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 I forgot to mention... There's something I really should have made clear right at the start of this, so I apologise for the omission, but here it is: It's crucially important to ensure that your tailwheel is straight behind you when you start your take-off roll. This might seem a little obvious but it's so easy to forget. The chances are that you've just completed a lazy turn on the runway to align with the centre line, but it's very tricky to judge the exact point at which your're truly on runway heading. This will lead you to stop before it's properly straightened out. The foolproof way to make sure is by getting into the habit of driving forward a few meters at walking pace, either prior to applying take-off power, or stopping on the runway to get your thoughts together. If your tailwheel is even slightly offset, depending on which way it's offset by, you'll have to make a fairly significant rudder input the moment you apply power, which increases your workload from the beginning when you could do without any additional tasks! 1 CPU: Intel i9 13900KS @5.8GHz | MB: ROG Strix Z790 Gaming-E | GPU: Asus ROG Strix RTX3090 OC | RAM: 32Gb Corsair Dominator DDR5 @6200MHz | Cooling: Custom CPU/GPU cooling loop | PSU: Supernova 850G2 @ 850W | OS: Windows 10 Home Premium 64Bit Storage: 3x Samsung EVO 970 Plus M.2 1Tb + 3x Samsung 850 EVO SSD 250Gb | Input: TM HOTAS WH Saitek Combat Pedals | Output: Samsung 50" OLED TV | VR: HP Reverb G2 | Audio: Realtek + Z906 5.1 Surround Sound Speaker System Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humptydumpty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Yep Chief , i always keep her centered on the take off roll else the understeer the dog wagging it's tail. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Attitude Power Trim Power Attitude Trim Wing Commander SWAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 I could not find something like a trolley to prop the tail up onto. Had to improvise a little. S983pkvMdyE The first time that it happened to me it was in the TF51 while I was holding the brakes and decided to bring the boost past 30. It seems sensible to me that one reason for which it happens is the air flow generated by the propeller, which causes lift. I also think that the thrust of the engine pushes the aircraft forward and makes the plane rotating because the front wheels become a rotation hub; see the attachment. Planes: FC3, Spitfire, Harrier, F-14, F-18, MiG-21, Edge 540 - Helicopters: UH-1H, Mi-8 - Environments: Persian Gulf, Supercarrier PC specs in the spoiler I run DCS 2.7 using: MasterWatt 550 semi-fanless and semi-modular, core i7-3770 (4 cores @ 3.8 GHz) with 8 GB DDR3, GTX1050 Ti (768 cores @ 1.8 GHz) with 4 GB GDDR5, 5.1 sound card, 240 GB SSD, Windows 8.1, T.16000M FCS Flight Pack (i. e. stick+throttle+rudder pedals), opentrack head trakcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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