Question on G/AoA representation across all "gaming seat" products

Hello folks, I'm pursuing a purchase of a haptic tool for my chair for a very specific reason and I would like to know opinions on functionality from different customers of products to see what one fits my needs most.

In short, during dogfighting I have no idea of my speed as my eyes are on the target and they are easy to lose in VR. I have found quick glancing at my speed was too long in VR (CV1 so its worse) and at that moment the plane went into some canopy or ground clutter or relfection and I lost it and... game over.

VR allowed me to solve 3D spatial puzzles but it doesn't help when you are not looking at any instruments. The greatest useful feedback to the body would be the AoA and G forces endured, and whilst I have no need to experience actual G force, I need to teach my arse what speed and AoA we are at so that I can not fall out of the sky. The progressive energy spend, if you like.

Thus, a haptic feedback device that can let me know some approximation of my AoA and, if possible, something of the G so my bum can read what G I am pulling. The rest of the feedback like gear, flaps, AB, shooting, I really couldnt care too much about, they are nice to haves, but I wanted to be clear that I am only willing to part with money if the device can tell me at any given moment in a turn a few stages of AoA and buffet and a little something of the G. The sounds or AoA sometimes work but sound seems to only get you an approximation way too late that you used too much energy.

I looked online and strangely, its mostly the haptic feedback of gear and flaps that folks talk about in reviews, I haven't found a review from someone that regularly does BFM and I'd like this tool to help me become better. A reminder, it doesnt have to be realistic G! That's not going to happen with a small device :) But any feedback I could physically "learn".

I'd love to listen to peoples experiences in this regard, I think it's a hard thing to describe easily.

Short of a fulling moving seat, checkout a jetseat

Short of a fulling moving seat, checkout a jetseat

So there are a few. Do either offer better AoA rendering/G force feedback than others?

I saw https://andres.shop/12-jetseat but its called a JetPad, and two choices of software

I saw https://eu.realteus.com/products/forcefeel?variant=18032055779397

and medoicre reviews, again with these same types of addon software

I saw https://andres.shop/jetseat/11-jetseat-kw-908.html a Gametrix jetseat and more confusing software options, but not bundled...there's four different softwares for different titles https://dreamsimteam.blogspot.com/p/downloads.html

I read

and only said Realtus customer support not good and some say uncomfortable.

What I was hoping for with this post is that given more market maturity than last week, people now have some experience to share and advice to give.

Thx Pikey, I was recently also looking into such seats and come to more questions than I could get answers. I will follow this post for sure and hope someone will be able to answer or help us

All of the above use the same software for DCS. AOA and G are not the same values, you can experience high G at low AOA and low G at high AOA depending on speed. That said, the Jetseat and Realteus seats provide what feels more like an accumulation or sensation of both but depending on scenario. You feel the slow increase of G build up starting at the bottom of the pad and working it's way up your back as you increase the G. You feel the G predominately more on the left in a left hand turn and vise versa on the right. In jet's like the F-14 where AOA buffeting is a huge indicator visually, it is also a large indicator in the seat as well, more AOA = more shaking. Hope this helps...

As for which one is better... from a functionality standpoint they are pretty much the same. Realteus however hasn't been able to deliver, and it still seems like a lot of customers are waiting or have contacted their CC companies for a refund. I purchased a jetseat some time ago (The one i own is no longer available) and between that version of the Jetseat and the Realteus seat I was sent for review, Realteus comes out on time as far as comfort... but I hear the newer Jetseat is better but I cant comment first hand.

All of the above use the same software for DCS. AOA and G are not the same values, you can experience high G at low AOA and low G at high AOA depending on speed. That said, the Jetseat and Realteus seats provide what feels more like an accumulation or sensation of both but depending on scenario. You feel the slow increase of G build up starting at the bottom of the pad and working it's way up your back as you increase the G. You feel the G predominately more on the left in a left hand turn and vise versa on the right. In jet's like the F-14 where AOA buffeting is a huge indicator visually, it is also a large indicator in the seat as well, more AOA = more shaking. Hope this helps...

 

As for which one is better... from a functionality standpoint they are pretty much the same. Realteus however hasn't been able to deliver, and it still seems like a lot of customers are waiting or have contacted their CC companies for a refund. I purchased a jetseat some time ago (The one i own is no longer available) and between that version of the Jetseat and the Realteus seat I was sent for review, Realteus comes out on time as far as comfort... but I hear the newer Jetseat is better but I cant comment first hand.

Hi Jabbers, so i hear from you that they can simulate both G and AOA as seperate inputs that you can feel and distinguish.

Do you find this helps you personally when in VR, to judge your aircraft's speed? Specifically thinking how your body learns to interpret these signals and use them when you dont have a visual indicator to check (i.e. you are staring at a dot on the ceiling whilst doing a bad Stevie Wonder impression.)

Thanks for your input, I think I'm almost there :)

Jetseat does offer G-effect vibration. Not sure if AOA. The more G-'s you pull the more vibration in general. It works fairly well IMO.

There is a G-seat with straps that also simualtes G's by tightening them. spendy IIRC.

I imagine for AOA you'd need a motion platform of some sort.

I would like to see a DCS support easily a DC motor that would output G force effect. Such manner that one could just attach couple DC motors to chair, pull straps trough and set physical limiters.

Now you need some extra going to get those things.

Jetseat does offer G-effect vibration. Not sure if AOA. The more G-'s you pull the more vibration in general. It works fairly well IMO.

 

There is a G-seat with straps that also simualtes G's by tightening them. spendy IIRC.

 

I imagine for AOA you'd need a motion platform of some sort.

The best most realistic indication of AoA (excessive) is buffeting (Shaking) a motion platform to convey AoA (through pitch I presume) would not be representative in the least, of Reality.

Hi Jabbers, so i hear from you that they can simulate both G and AOA as seperate inputs that you can feel and distinguish.

 

 

Do you find this helps you personally when in VR, to judge your aircraft's speed? Specifically thinking how your body learns to interpret these signals and use them when you dont have a visual indicator to check (i.e. you are staring at a dot on the ceiling whilst doing a bad Stevie Wonder impression.)

 

Thanks for your input, I think I'm almost there :)

It's not that it simulates one over the other... its that it simulates one or the other depending on the situation... as example, in the F-14 you feel G come on at high speeds when pulling on the stick, but at low speeds the buffeting that happens in conjunction with the visual representation on screen is also felt. G is felt starting at the thighs and moves up the back as you increase, buffeting is felt everywhere, and buffeting is kind of aircraft dependent as far as feeling goes. The F-14 buffets a lot at high AOA, so you really feel it, other aircraft maybe not so much but still there. Does it help yes, very much so in some aircraft over others. The F-14 I keep coming back to cause I feel its one of the better experiences (and probably the one I've used the seat the most in) because I can feel what G or AOA I am at in a dogfight and hold me speed much more accurately without having to constantly look at the speed indicator.

Well you should be able to get high AoA into the buffet range at higher G with some aircraft like the Mirage.

Normal buffet onset is what you'll notice in a normal plane - as in low speed vibrations at high AoA. The frequency of the vibration of that should change with speed, high frequency at higher speed getting lower and louder as you get slower and higher AoA. Depends on the aircraft, some like Mirage and Hornet will happily pull silly high AoA at faster speed, most normal planes can't get there so it will be basic buffet at the lower speeds because they can't pull off axis. That's the inherent instability benefit of those types. So they should be absolutely different things through the seat.

The best most realistic indication of AoA (excessive) is buffeting (Shaking) a motion platform to convey AoA (through pitch I presume) would not be representative in the least, of Reality.

Not sure entirely what you mean. The level of AoA buffet is actually taught as a guide. For example the P-1289 has 15 mentions of "nibble of buffet" as a guide to how hard to pull, throughout the ACM teaching manual.

Obviously you have different speeds at which buffet happens and that equates to different amounts of pull on the stick. Having your seat give you AoA unit feedback is a massive advantage to keeping your energy high but still max performing your turn. Which is mostly why I want it. G.. not so much, but nice to have.

Not sure entirely what you mean. The level of AoA buffet is actually taught as a guide. For example the P-1289 has 15 mentions of "nibble of buffet" as a guide to how hard to pull, throughout the ACM teaching manual.

 

 

Obviously you have different speeds at which buffet happens and that equates to different amounts of pull on the stick. Having your seat give you AoA unit feedback is a massive advantage to keeping your energy high but still max performing your turn. Which is mostly why I want it. G.. not so much, but nice to have.

Some airframes are more noticable than others but yes, this is what you feel... but also G, so... depending on how much G, it can override the feeling of AoA. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. This is gold dust info. Are these feelings tweakable do you think inthe software?

Either way sounds like I need it in my life :)

Not sure entirely what you mean. The level of AoA buffet is actually taught as a guide. For example the P-1289 has 15 mentions of "nibble of buffet" as a guide to how hard to pull, throughout the ACM teaching manual.

 

 

Obviously you have different speeds at which buffet happens and that equates to different amounts of pull on the stick. Having your seat give you AoA unit feedback is a massive advantage to keeping your energy high but still max performing your turn. Which is mostly why I want it. G.. not so much, but nice to have.

I meant you can do the Buffet with shaking, I didn't see the need for a motion platform for that. And I assumed it was beeing sugested that AoA should be conveyed to the user through platform absolute pitch, which would not be accurate.

I meant you can do the Buffet with shaking, I didn't see the need for a motion platform for that. And I assumed it was beeing sugested that AoA should be conveyed to the user through platform absolute pitch, which would not be accurate.

Not sure why you thought those things, this is about a gaming seat modelling the vibration of an AoA buffet - but it doesn't matter. :)

Pikey when I made that comment I was replying to Harlikwin, regarding this:

I imagine for AOA you'd need a motion platform of some sort.

Not sure why else one would think a motion platform would be necessary to convey AoA, but I am not inside his head and I admit I don't actually know what he was thinking. I just assumed that's what he meant.

Pikey when I made that comment I was replying to Harlikwin, regarding this:

 

 

Not sure why else one would think a motion platform would be necessary to convey AoA, but I am not inside his head and I admit I don't actually know what he was thinking. I just assumed that's what he meant.

ooh. I see. Then my mistake was cross thing wires :) I didnt understand it either.

Absolutely. This is gold dust info. Are these feelings tweakable do you think inthe software?

Either way sounds like I need it in my life :)

Yes they can be tweaked, I haven't tweaked them in a long time so many someone can post a screenshot... as I don't have it installed at the moment.

I disabled the G stuff because it's weird and unrealistic. But it does provide a sensation, yes. Just a very poor one. Also, all those use the same software and only the JetPad is still available afaik.

I disabled the G stuff because it's weird and unrealistic. But it does provide a sensation, yes. Just a very poor one. Also, all those use the same software and only the JetPad is still available afaik.

thanks Zhukov!

On 2/27/2020 at 2:46 PM, Pikey said:

I looked online and strangely, its mostly the haptic feedback of gear and flaps that folks talk about in reviews, I haven't found a review from someone that regularly does BFM and I'd like this tool to help me become better. A reminder, it doesnt have to be realistic G! That's not going to happen with a small device But any feedback I could physically "learn".

Hi Pikey, 

Did you gather more intel about this? Your haptic feedback aproach seems the right one to me. I'm starting to experiment with bHaptics suits in MSFS and IL2, I hope to port it to DCS soon, once I learn how to get the telemetry.

Mi initial aproach to instrument-less flight was:

- Overspeed: If the aircraft aproaches VNE, your backs starts vibrating, like your seat is transmiting structural vibration from the plane. This pretends to be informative for dives.
- Engine RPM: If the engine aproaches max RPM, your chest starts vibrating. This pretends to be informative for engine management.
- Gs: If G's exceed a threshold, you belly starts vibrating, like the ticking in a rollercoaster. This pretends to be informative for not bleeding much energy in turns.
- Jerk: If the accelaration changes sudenly, then all the vest starts vibrating. This was mainly for immersion, but it could be informative also if you put the threshold very low.
- Flaps and Gear: Added for inmersion, but it heps to know when they reached the final position, but that's already well conveyed by sound.

Until I read you post, I didn't even think about AoA, but now I can't stop thinking about it, it would be so informative to avoid stalls because of low speeds and exagarated stick pulls ...

The question is, how does it feel IRL ? How do we convey it with haptics ?
For example, the Engine RPM making my chest vibrate maybe is not real, but it's intuitive for me, it makes sense since the engine is just in front of my chest (not with 2 engine planes ...)

BTW, I have also the posibility of add vibration to my forearms ... but no sure how to use it.

Hi, I didn't go much further but its great to see people expanding upon this hobby and anything you add is no less than awesome.

So, it's true what you say, you don't "need" to have a 1:1 signal to make something more immersive. For example any signal to any part of the body almost that something is happening in game adds something. The closer it is to real world, the better.

I haven't stalled an aircraft to feel buffet but its well documented. The issue is perhaps more from plane to plane. Some planes show a lot of buffet before they stall, others snap a single wing quickly without warning. Each AoA for each plane will be different. But they should exhibit common signbs, which is a vibration, its basically disturbed airflow over the wing at too high alpha so its bumping throughout the airframe. Rmemebering you can stall one wing you can have uneven feelings irl, but not somehting I think the exports can handle in DCS. It's easy to imagine uneven airflow, everyone has been in a jet liner when it goes through turbulence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFl6I_a3njg

This one is more stall related, but a good example of stall without buffet.

So, the TLDR is that it may be very complex to assess the buffet amount and strength for each moment of AoA for each aircraft as its attached to the FM.

For haptic arms what about rollrate and yaw? might be soemthing that can be done.

HTH good luck making something!

Thanks pikey !!!!

I have moved structural vibration because VNE is close to the upper back, and now vibration in the lower back I use it for buffet vibration.

I'm testing it in IL2, it's working well on dogfights, but not for landing, since stall seems to start at a lower AoA. When I migrate it to DCS I'll se how it feels in modern jets.

It's so good in dogfights, it looks like a cheat. In modern planes we can imagine that's a feature of the anti-g suit, a  vibrator indicator of high AoA, even if the plane doesn't give sign before the stall.

No way is it a cheat! Us simmers are deprived of body feedback! We are instrument gods. Could you imagine flying with right rudder in a real plane feeling squashed up against the left wall uncomfortably. In the sim, we look for a slip indicator... sometimes. Natural G force being absent makes it much harder, but flying a plane to it's limits is 'felt.' It's even used in teaching manuals, the USN use the phrase taking a bite of the buffet and include trying to understand the literal feeling of a plane at various AoA's. In dogfighting, with a small view space, when padlocked onto an enemy plane in the roof of your cockpit, you have almost no sensation of what slow is, in the context of AoA. A haptic replacement only partially meets what is available to the bodies sensation when flying vigorously.