AV-8B AIM 120

I’ve seen a picture recently of an AV 8B armed with AIM 120’s as well as AIM 9’s and an array of bombs. I was just wondering whether our model would have, in real life, AIM 120’s and if so whether there are any plans to add this weapon at a future date?

Thanks.

NeilG.

That has been going on here for ages now, so the short answer is:

There are two separate planes that are both designated AV-8B. There is AV-8B Harrier N/A (Night Attack, the one we got here) and there is AV-8B Harrier Plus, which carries a radar and thus is capable of AIM-120ing around.

I see, fair enough.. thanks for the response. Presumably the question has also been asked about whether the day time AV might become available at some point. I should add, I love the Harrier - as I still call it being a Brit - and am happy either way, it’s an excellent piece of modelling.

The AV-8 Plus uses the same radar as the Hornet. So IF Razbam can get the code then maybe.

The AV-8 Plus uses the same radar as the Hornet. So IF Razbam can get the code then maybe.

Um, no, not our hornet at least which uses the APG-73. The A model F18 APG-65 radars were pulled off those aircraft and put on the AV8B+. The APG-65 is much less capable.

I see, fair enough.. thanks for the response. Presumably the question has also been asked about whether the day time AV might become available at some point. I should add, I love the Harrier - as I still call it being a Brit - and am happy either way, it’s an excellent piece of modelling.

The day fighter version afaik just lacks all the fancy sensors. The plus pulls the DMT (and Abris? Don't remember) and used the space for the radar, has a slightly different FM due to weight changes, though.

Hopefully you won't have long to wait for the Sea Harrier FRS-1...which will give you a radar, but no radar missiles. It's 60kts faster than the Harrier II though...

There was a push to get the AMRAAM equipped FRS-2's saved from being scrapped by using them as Tornado replacements, but sadly that ended up not happening. The FRS-2's phenomenal climb rate made up for it's lack of supersonic speed in the interceptor role, but someone at the MOD just didn't want it to happen.

Um, no, not our hornet at least which uses the APG-73. The A model F18 APG-65 radars were pulled off those aircraft and put on the AV8B+. The APG-65 is much less capable.

You are right. Should of said what hornets it was.

The day fighter version afaik just lacks all the fancy sensors. The plus pulls the DMT (and Abris? Don't remember) and used the space for the radar, has a slightly different FM due to weight changes, though.

Yup, no ARBS or NAVFLIR (I think). Just the radar in their place, so it is more nose heavy.

Hopefully you won't have long to wait for the Sea Harrier FRS-1...which will give you a radar, but no radar missiles. It's 60kts faster than the Harrier II though...

 

There was a push to get the AMRAAM equipped FRS-2's saved from being scrapped by using them as Tornado replacements, but sadly that ended up not happening. The FRS-2's phenomenal climb rate made up for it's lack of supersonic speed in the interceptor role, but someone at the MOD just didn't want it to happen.

I mean, as much as I want to go play Sharkey Ward, the FRS1 Blue Fox radar was crap compared to the APG-65 on the AV8B+. Not sure how Blue Vixen compared, probably as good or better though.

Overall supersonic speed and high altitude performance matters ALOT when it comes to actual BVR combat, climb rate not so much. The AV8B as an Aim120 platform probably has the worst kinetics of any fighter I can think of in those regards. I mean its certainly better than nothing if you are flying them off a mini-carrier, but pretty much any carrier launched AC or ground based AC is gonna be better than you kinematically. I can't think of any reason why you'd want to replace the tornado with a harrier in any air to air role unless you were absolutely desperate, climb rate phenomenal or not isn't gonna save you when you can't actually engage anyone cuz they have better kinematics.

Yup, no ARBS or NAVFLIR (I think). Just the radar in their place, so it is more nose heavy.

The AV-8B+ still has the NAVFLIR, in a more squared faring directly above the radar.

Yup, no ARBS or NAVFLIR (I think). Just the radar in their place, so it is more nose heavy.

They still have the NAVFLIR

The AV-8B+ still has the NAVFLIR, in a more squared faring directly above the radar.

I stand corrected :)

.....kinematics.

It's a shame the senior Harrier pilots never asked you for advice before they submitted their proposal, you could have saved them a lot of typing and studying performance graphs and the like.

It's a shame the senior Harrier pilots never asked you for advice before they submitted their proposal, you could have saved them a lot of typing and studying performance graphs and the like.

Realistically now... what relevance does climb rate have in the modern age? You're not scooting to 50k feet to engage B-52s/Tu-95s with guns and heaters, nor are they dropping dumb bombs over cities. If fighters are close enough you're scrambling, again climbrate is a minor consideration.

The Harrier was not designed as an air superiority fighter, it CAN fight in the air, especially with the correct equipment, but generally it is going to suck at it compared to something actually designed for that. The Falklands was an exception due to the specific dated aircraft they were fighting and the logistical advantage they had. However, there too, climbrate was irrelevant.

I don't make the news, I just report it :)

Obviously the MOD wasted it's time considering the proposal, when what they should have done is contact some guys who play a video game instead :)

Seriously I'll try and remember which one of my Harrier books I read about this in, I'm sure they are breeding when my back is turned :D

I can't remember why the proposal was rejected, probably financial reasons combined with spite knowing the UK MOD

Honestly the Sea Harrier is not suited to the UK's interceptor mission, at least not as well as the Tornado ADV. The whole point of that aircraft was to have a combination of excellent radar, avionics and endurance at the expense of raw performance, which is why it's pretty much only suited to defending the UK, and why Italy and Germany weren't really interested.

Being a subsonic single seat aircraft, with shorter range the Tornado, in a smaller airframe (which can't carry as many electronics or as large an antenna), it's easy to see why the MOD wouldn't be interested. I think cost may be its one advantage over the F3 actually, after all the Tornado in any variant is pretty expensive. I also don't think climb rate would have helped the FA2 stay in service, because if the MOD considered it to be very important they wouldn't have gotten the F3 in the first place.

The Sea Harrier was not used/designed for main land defence.

It's a shame the senior Harrier pilots never asked you for advice before they submitted their proposal, you could have saved them a lot of typing and studying performance graphs and the like.

I could have. Actually. It doesnt take a rocket scientist or sume sub par performer at the MOD to understand the simple fact a missile chucked at high altitude and high mach is going to be winner in any missile chucking contest. And the F15 was built around that basic understanding and still stands as one of the best fighter aircraft on earth 50 years later. The F22 took that same idea and improved on it to the point of absurdity. They had to invent the term "air dominance fighter" cuz air superiority didnt do the job.

The harrier is a kludge with huge design tradeoffs, its main claim to glory is VSTOL that does permit it to operate anywhere. At literally the expense of every other capability, especically BVR combat. And i say that loving the harrier, but it is what it is.

I could have. Actually. It doesnt take a rocket scientist or sume sub par performer at the MOD...blah blah blah etc etc

I didn't believe it myself until I read the proposal. And in the context of British air defence requirements, combined with the fact that the Tornado ADV was experiencing a lot of teething troubles, it made a fair amount of sense.

The proposal was by senior pilots, not by the MOD - most MOD civil servants never had an original thought in their lives. If someone told them that the sky was blue they'd form a committee to investigate.

But your in depth real world knowledge of air warfare is wasted here, you should be telling the RAF and RN what to do, not wasting your time on PC flight sims. Then we might get some decent kinematics :D

Is that proposal publicly available?

Speed is relative. The UK are predominantly worried about bombers, so intercepting those doesn't necessarily require something extremely fast.

Fighter vs. fighter is a different proposition, hence the whole idea of escorts for heavy bombers.

Harrier vs. Su-27 is going to end badly.

Harrier was designed with a specific mission profile in mind: numerous, close to the FLOT, ready to strike armor and support vehicles at a moments notice from temporary operating bases hidden in forests and other improvised operating bases with easy access from the regular road network to supply logistics.

Since then, its role expanded to self-defence air-to-air and SEAD capability, and then someone thought "if we stick in a RADAR in there we can do BVR as well".

It was never intended to do much more, which is why the VSTOL capability appears senseless now because the aircraft weight has only gone in one direction.

It was supposed to fly short range missions, with quick-turnaround for weapons and fuel, and head out again.

Hiding in forests and other bases was a means to defend against fighters. They'd need to locate the base and strafe it/bomb it, which meant getting within our air-defence capability.

Speed is relative. The UK are predominantly worried about bombers, so intercepting those doesn't necessarily require something extremely fast.

 

Fighter vs. fighter is a different proposition, hence the whole idea of escorts for heavy bombers.

 

Harrier vs. Su-27 is going to end badly.

 

Harrier was designed with a specific mission profile in mind: numerous, close to the FLOT, ready to strike armor and support vehicles at a moments notice from temporary operating bases hidden in forests and other improvised operating bases with easy access from the regular road network to supply logistics.

 

Since then, its role expanded to self-defence air-to-air and SEAD capability, and then someone thought "if we stick in a RADAR in there we can do BVR as well".

 

It was never intended to do much more, which is why the VSTOL capability appears senseless now because the aircraft weight has only gone in one direction.

 

It was supposed to fly short range missions, with quick-turnaround for weapons and fuel, and head out again.

 

Hiding in forests and other bases was a means to defend against fighters. They'd need to locate the base and strafe it/bomb it, which meant getting within our air-defence capability.

 

Yup, sounds like the MOD proposal was more political than practical at any rate, not that "military politics" isn't a time honored tradition. Hey give us more money and we can do whatever mission etc...

Unless the harrier was sent to intercept T-95 bears (which are still actually rather fast) it has almost no hope of intercepting something capable of supersonic speeds on the deck like a SU-24s, or Tu-22's or TU-160's.

The Fleet air defense role for the Harrier was only because the British really had nothing else to do it after they retired their real carriers. The harrier had to do everything, and it did to some extent, and typically worse than any other airframe that didn't have the massive VSTOL penalty. Its not a bad strike aircraft mainly because it was mostly designed around that. For Air to Air, its better than nothing, but any modern multirole fighter is going to outperform it in that role. Falklands aside, the main thing the Harriers were used for was the shepherd Soviet maritime recon planes away from the fleet.

Is that proposal publicly available?

Very, very, very unlikely.

In good old Britain absolutely everything even slightly related to the military is usually restricted or secret unless there is a reason it isn't.

It might have ended up at the Public Records Office though, they won't have put it on the internet, but they'll make an unreadable photocopy of it for you at a price of £5 per page or something.

I would like a Fox3, probably use it maddog. Sometimes I land and hide behind buildings lol. GCI cannot see me now. Popup and maddog (longer range), sounds like fun. Harriers vs F-16

Fox 2's, hunting in the hills from farp.

Can have many kills if you have GCI.