New visibility model

That's a faulty LoD that you're describing, though, not the ''spotting'' persay. It's either dropping details too early, or possibly glitching. Derendering altogether would definitely fall into the category of glitch, I'd say

That's a faulty LoD that you're describing, though, not the ''spotting'' persay. It's either dropping details too early, or possibly glitching. Derendering altogether would definitely fall into the category of glitch, I'd say

It is hard in a dogfight, when you have the plane against a background that merges in contrast, I would say harder as in real life.

That is where a bit of improvement (something like keeping at least a bit of contrast), would be nice.

But in general the spotting improved tremendously since 2.5 and I am opposed to a nerfed approach, just because someone is not willing to learn scanning techniques or train is ability to recognize a plane at 5 NM as he wants it "easy"...

I will agree that finding planes IRL is difficult, but not impossible. Where as in some situations i.e Mig-21, the left wing actually disappears when not that far. The current system ins't perfect and could be improved. I should be able to spot an F-15 2nm away from me no problem, but shouldn't be able to see a missile coming at me from 4nm represented as a black dot on my screen.

I agree. It seems more difficult to spot aircraft at medium ranges because of simplistic LOD and lack of shaders at a distance. For instance rhe MiG 15 or F5e turn a flat gray at 1km with no shading or reflection, but eventually turns into a black dot further out. Because of this I find it easier to spot an aircraft at 5km than 1km.

I liked the scaling option they had in the open beta (1.5?). It made dogfighting and formation flying more comfortable. You didn’t have to stay zoomed in on an aircraft to keep track of them. I liked that it was a server option as well, so people who think scaling is unrealistic could disable it.

For instance rhe MiG 15 or F5e turn a flat gray at 1km with no shading or reflection, but eventually turns into a black dot further out. Because of this I find it easier to spot an aircraft at 5km than 1km.

That's exactly what's wrong with the view system. I'm amused by the fact that the advocates that say the system is fine never noted this. Sometimes I wonder if many people here even play A2A. For sure this thread wouldn't have gotten this long if they did.

No, it's that we recognise the difference between an unintwnded effect and a deliberate design choice. Models derendering or having sketchy LODs doesn't mean the spotting system is bad, it means those specific 3d models need to be tweaked and/or there's a glitch in the engine causing objects to disappear.

I'll confess I've never fought a MiG-15/21 and only fought F-5s on a few occasions back in 2.0, the examples you're citing thus far. The fact F-15s are visible (as already proven) implies the issue is likely with thiese specific aircraft (supported by the specific symptoms you deacribe) rather than thevrendering method as a whole.

Also, whether somebody primaries A2A or A2G is irrelecant, unless the guy flying A2G never has wingmen and never encounters hostile aircraft he'scstill going to encounter other planes and,therefore encounter this potential issue.

No, it's that we recognise the difference between an unintwnded effect and a deliberate design choice. Models derendering or having sketchy LODs doesn't mean the spotting system is bad, it means those specific 3d models need to be tweaked and/or there's a glitch in the engine causing objects to disappear.

 

I'll confess I've never fought a MiG-15/21 and only fought F-5s on a few occasions back in 2.0, the examples you're citing thus far. The fact F-15s are visible (as already proven) implies the issue is likely with thiese specific aircraft (supported by the specific symptoms you deacribe) rather than thevrendering method as a whole.

 

Also, whether somebody primaries A2A or A2G is irrelecant, unless the guy flying A2G never has wingmen and never encounters hostile aircraft he'scstill going to encounter other planes and,therefore encounter this potential issue.

Zhukov, you don't play much air to air, do you? An F-15 is visible at 60 km with naked eye without zoom. When it gets closer, zooming in will make it disappear, zooming out will make it appear again. This scheme happens to all aircraft, it's not specific to F-15, MiGs or F-5. Where on earth are you guy's "proper scanning techniques"??

Zhukov, you don't play much air to air, do you? An F-15 is visible at 60 km with naked eye without zoom. When it gets closer, zooming in will make it disappear, zooming out will make it appear again. This scheme happens to all aircraft, it's not specific to F-15, MiGs or F-5. Where on earth are you guy's "proper scanning techniques"??

Hmm, I need to check that, to be sure it doesn't happen with any other plane, but it does not with the A-10C, the AV-8B and Huey, as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe you are not on the current version?

Or do you play with a mixed resolution between desktop and ingame?

Hmm, I need to check that, to be sure it doesn't happen with any other plane, but it does not with the A-10C, the AV-8B and Huey, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Maybe you are not on the current version?

 

Or do you play with a mixed resolution between desktop and ingame?

It does happen to the A-10C and all other aircraft, it's the current visibility system since the 'model enlargement' system was discontinued, way back in 1.5. And yes, I'm in the current version (2.5.2 Open Beta) and no, not using mixed resolution. With all the respect, if you guys aren't even aware of the current 'dots visibility system', why are you even posting in the visibility model thread?

BTW, the lower you set your Gamma, the easier it is to spot the dots against the sky. If you use extermal FXAA it gets much harder.

It does happen to the A-10C and all other aircraft, it's the current visibility system since the 'model enlargement' system was discontinued, way back in 1.5. And yes, I'm in the current version (2.5.2 Open Beta) and no, not using mixed resolution. With all the respect, if you guys aren't even aware of the current 'dots visibility system', why are you even posting in the visibility model thread?

 

BTW, the lower you set your Gamma, the easier it is to spot the dots against the sky. If you use extermal FXAA it gets much harder.

May be 5-6NM if you new the height and vector from the TAD and used scanning plus zoom you could spot your wingmen, but no large blobs visible for 60km which is some 32(!) NM.

All on Openbeta of course. That's why I am asking what is different in your install.

Because, I flew the AV-8B yesterday, the A-10C and Huey and A-10C last week, in single and Multiplayer, in tight and loose formation, split the flight and we had no such issues as planes visible for 60km.

May be 5-6NM if you new the height and vector from the TAD and used scanning plus zoom you could spot your wingmen, but no large blobs visible for 60km which is some 32(!) NM.

 

All on Openbeta of course. That's why I am asking what is different in your install.

It's not a large blob, it's a small dot. You might not see it depending on your graphics settings (Gamma value, FXAA) or because you're not paying enough attention to it. But it's always there.

It's not a large blob, it's a small dot. You might not see it depending on your graphics settings (Gamma value, FXAA) or because you're not paying enough attention to it. But it's always there.

So for the faction "I can't see the planes, they disappear", no they don't they just get harder to spot the more distant they are.

At about 3 NM to 6 NM, you can spot them without pausing the sim, beyond that you need to zoom, which makes it more difficult to track a plane while moving.

For the argument there is a dot always visible from 60 km (32 NM) away. Well, really? Yes, there is a dot if you can track any plane for more than 20 sec at 15 NM and without zooming in and first pausing the plane to spot it while knowing exactly where it is, you likely have superpowers. The zoom would resemble a binocular, so that is not unrealistic, and with the narrow field of view near impossible to spot and track a random contact at 30 NM away.

If there is anything that can be further improved it is the ability to track a plane in the 0-5NM area, but definitely it isn't easy to spot a plane at 30 NM.

I tested with both my plane and the distant ones as A-10Cs. Tested at 1080p and 4K resolution.

EDIT: In this screenshot try to spot the planes. How many are there? ...and when you found all of them, ask yourself if you could have done it, while looking at a moving scene, with moving planes?

Shagrat,

The dots are very easy to see against the sky, I do it all the time, and so all the A2A pilots in multiplayer, without ever pausing the sim. In your pic there's 1 dot (the right-most) that's very flashy and quick to spot, the other 4 dots (to the left of the first) are harder and require more slow scanning. These are against the sky, I don't know if there are any against the ground, as they're much harder to spot. Also, you are zooming in, which makes it harder to spot. Correct techinque in DCS is to zoom out, makes the dots much more visible (reduces the size of everything except the dot, you can't reduce the size of a pixel). At lower Gamma values (most people play with lower Gamma than the default 2.2) it gets even easier. I play at 1080 and I've heard 4k makes it harder to spot the dot because the pixel is smaller at 4k. Also, I don't know if you tested 1080p on a native 1080p monitor or on a 4k monitor, but testing resolutions lower than the monitor's max (native) resolution yelds poor results. I have a 1080p monitor and dots are VERY visible here at 1080p.

If there is anything that can be further improved it is the ability to track a plane in the 0-5NM area...

That's were we agree.

...but definitely it isn't easy to spot a plane at 30 NM.

It's VERY easy to spot a plane at 30nm. You do it in a quick glance without ever zooming in, much more efficient than using the radars.

Well, Captain Eagle Eyes ;) I don't know how you guys keep missing me saying this : If an object visible at a distance derenders as it get closer that's an obvious unintended effect that has nothing ti do with scaling or lack thereof, it pretty obviously shouldn.t be doing that. This is also the first time I saw someone providing detail about longer ranges instead of 'I can't see a house sized object at two miles' (which is 100% user error because aircraft are definitely visible sub 10 miles.)

Both are related to similar factors: LoD and/or rendering errors, and having nothing to do with scaling or its absence. Disappearing wings and textures etc are errors. A visible object disappearing then reappearing later is an error.

So, I would carefully record the aircraft involved and the specific ranges and circumstances these events occur at. If the wings on a MiG-21 derender at two milesvor some such, then collect data and file a bug report with Leatherneck or whatever they call themselves now requesting they adjust the 3d LoDing for that aircraft. Do the same with BelSimTels MiG-15 and F-5 (which have also been mentioned in this thread).

THEN regarding 'all' llanes rendering, then derendering, then reappearing again as you get closer, record specific data and conditions and file a bug report with ED requesting they take a look at the rendering at mid to long distances to see if they can identify the cause of this obviously unintended situation.

By all means, continue asking for scaling as well, if you wish, but these specific things you're describing have nothing to do with scaling and need to be repirted and addressed anyway. That they became more apparent after scaling's removal is irrelevant and coincidental... they still need to be fixed.

Also, I do both to varying extents and have never used scaling. It also doesn't matter because A. ground pounders still interact with other aircraft and B. none of this has anything to do with scaling

@shagrat

I see at least three on the horizon, and it would be easier on a moving screen, imo, cause you could see them moving across the baclground, assuming you were paying attention

Zhukov,

This is not de-rendering, at least I've never seen anything de-rendering in A2A combat. This is simply the 3d model being less visible than the dark dot that replaces it beyond a certain distance. This is nothing new, it's also described on other posts on the forum, but I don't remember exactly where. You guys are over-complicating it.

For sanity's sake... spend some time on the BVR default missions/instant actions included with FC3 (Constant Peg, etc.), you will see what I'm referring to. Pay attention to the enemy aicraft as they get nearer, from BVR until WVR. Zoom in and out at all different distances.

Yesterday i was flying a dogfight and then bandit goes 1,5 - 2 miles away and then the combat goes to BVR...

:(

Yesterday i was flying a dogfight and then bandit goes 1,5 - 2 miles away and then the combat goes to BVR...

 

 

:(

If you can’t see bandits at 2mi nothing can help you except just turn on the labels and practice awareness.

@Rikus

I noticed in the latest patch, they specifically mentioned adjusting LoD 4 on the MiG-21 because it was turning invisible. Typically there are 5 LoDs so that was either the last one or next to last.

What aircraft were you fighting, and have you tested against the MiG-21 yet? Does it still do the disappearing wings you described before? I can't fly to test right now, unfortunately.

@Sharpe

That's true in some cases, but not all. Some of the stuff they've described are graphical anomalies or issues with 3d models and LoDs, a fact borne out by the above mentioned tweaking to the MiG-21. I disagree with some aspects of their complaints, but there ARE issues, at least with specific aircraft, or under certain conditions.

If you can’t see bandits at 2mi nothing can help you except just turn on the labels and practice awareness.

Is not about practice, is about it´s almos impossible to spot in my 27" 4K monitor.

Curiously, in BMS i don´t have any problem, so my SA is good.

I repeat, is not about SA i follow the bandit till just dissappear...

Is not about practice, is about it´s almos impossible to spot in my 27" 4K monitor.

 

Curiously, in BMS i don´t have any problem, so my SA is good.

 

I repeat, is not about SA i follow the bandit till just dissappear...

mmm, 27" 4K Not a good combo in this sim or any for IRL realistic spotting. No scaling here this is not that sim and never will be, you will need to zoom in to 60 - 70 FOV? or more with that monitors very small screen @ 4K res. OR grab a 42+ inch screen, that's what I would use @ 4K. If they scaled for you the guy's with big TV's would be love'n it.

ED may bring back a spirit option thing for guy's in your situation? The servers will possibly not have this option on tho, as the guy's with large 4K tv's get an edge over you (everyone) with a larger spirit thing.

It's VERY easy to spot a plane at 30nm. You do it in a quick glance without ever zooming in, much more efficient than using the radars.

This is far from a universally true statement, it only applies on lower resolutions.

I've done testing on varying hardware setups and there is massive spread of visual ranges at which the same contact on the same mission can first beocme visible (from 55km down to 10km).

You might have good long range vis on your monitor, but someone else might be completely unable to see the same contacts.

The people telling other to just "get better" at spotting, or work on their SA clearly haven't tested DCS on various hardware setups. Comments like that have no credibility.

Reference/ Proof:

I spotted me a head on KC130 at 53nm yesterday in VR (labels off).

That hole post effect dot thing is up side down, for those that can actually see it. Should be applied close in, rather than in another time zone.

I'm in the process of changing from 1080p on a 27inch, to 31.5 inch screen, and I'm only going to push it to 2K resolution for combat simming, becasue I know that even then I will be losing some pixel-visibility.

Having now made the transition to a 2K monitor (I went with 27") I can confirm that spotting the long-range contacts is a nightmare.

I want from being able to see a Viggen at 55km, down to less than 10km.

This needs to be made much more uniform accross all resolutions by ED, whatever distance figure is the more reaslitic one.

Yesterday i was flying a dogfight and then bandit goes 1,5 - 2 miles away and then the combat goes to BVR...

 

:(

Yes it is terrible. Don't let anyone fool you to believe it is better on a 42" at @ 4k, it is not. It is a specific problem that DCS have. I have 3 other flight sims installed and none of them have this problem at 4K or any other resolution for that matter.

If you can’t see bandits at 2mi nothing can help you except just turn on the labels and practice awareness.

One word sir. Bullshit!

you will need to zoom in to 60 - 70 FOV?

In most games and DCS 60-70d is actually the normal “wide” view. How are you thinking that 60-70 is zooming in?

mmm, 27" 4K Not a good combo in this sim or any for IRL realistic spotting.

That’s actually a decent size for any monitor including 4K. Unless it’s across the room from you, at normal seating distance it’s ok. I’m looking at 28” now and can see anything well.

Reference/ Proof:

The most worrying thing I've seen there is the fact that you want to make planes visible from 56 km away in 1440p too, instead of making them invisible at 1080p. You guys have any idea of what 56 km is?