AIM-7 Performance

It worked because the missile didn't have to do any sort of corrections to its flight path

Perhaps re-read the OP.

The OP talks about Max range.

Quoted max range figures are for a non-manoeuvring target with high closure speed, at high altitude.

That's what I reported back on.

It's true that if he'd beamed, the missile might not have hit.

That's part of the purpose of beaming* - so that where before beaming you were inside the effective** engagement range of the attacking missile, after beaming you're not.

That's why the NEZ is the NEZ, because outside that range, the target might defeat your missile by doing something like beaming.

There are definitely issues with the missile guidance, but - without wanting to be rude to the OP - expecting to get a hit with a 38 NM launch against a slow target at sea level doesn't bring the conversation forward in any real way.

My experience playing around against AI MiG-21 last night while trying to continue a mental transition from the Su-27 was that a launch at somewhere inside 15NM would probably get you a kill regardless of their manoeuvres / chaff.

There were occasions where they beamed & dropped chaff and the radar lost lock & the missile went ballistic, but again, that's the intended effect of notching and chaff (the tracks were pretty good at picking up the lock though).

*(I'm at work and not going to watch your track. maybe the poor guidance caused excessive speed loss, maybe they notched / decoyed you, maybe they were just too far away for the shot you made to hit them if they manoeuvred.)

**(Put whichever type of range from max aerodynamic through to anything outside NEZ you want to talk about here)

There is a huge problem with the drag considering a 40,000 launch should get as far 53nm before it can no longer manuever

Out of curiosity - where did you get 53 nm as a range, for which version, and what does 'before it can no longer manoeuvre' mean? When the batteries die ?

I maintain solid locks but still have a low success rate.

An official unclassified document with details about the AIM-7F, that states the aerodynamic range of 53nm. The in game missiles bassicaly start falling out of the sky long before traveling that far. It seems logical to think the -m variant would be at least on par.

I maintain solid locks but still have a low success rate.

This describes me as well.

Yes, absolutely! The Sparrow is successfull against less maneuverable aircraft like the IL-76, but it´s nearly impossible to destroy a MiG that easily can outmaneuver the Sparrow.

So I really hope for the AMRAAMs to be implemented soon!

It seems that it's not necessarily a maneuverability problem with regard to the aim-7 but an oversensitivity to chaff, it is really devouring the stuff right now.

Don't launch your missile at Rmax.

During Vietnam war the general effectiveness of Sparrows was below 30%. Hard to say if all were launched in correct envelopes. Try to use AIM7M instead of F, which is older and not that much better than the vietnam 1st generation.

Overall i think it is realistic behavior. Read more about this missile, how sensitive it is. It's almost 50 yrs old design.

I have much more fun with random missile failures and missess than with 70% accurate amraams or 99% aim 9x's which makes the combat short and boring.

During Vietnam war the general effectiveness of Sparrows was below 30%. Hard to say if all were launched in correct envelopes. Try to use AIM7M instead of F, which is older and not that much better than the vietnam 1st generation.

 

Overall i think it is realistic behavior. Read more about this missile, how sensitive it is. It's almost 50 yrs old design.

Honestly, if you you really read about the AIM-7, you would know that the M and F versions are much more advanced than the older ones used in Vietnam. For instance, the production of the AIM-7M started in 1982 and had a theoretical probability of kill of 50% while it achieved actually a Pk of 79% during the second Gulf War in 1991.

but it´s nearly impossible to destroy a MiG that easily can outmaneuver the Sparrow

Depends where you launch from - I was having no trouble hitting AI MiG-21 from 10 - 15 NM last night.

(…) while it achieved actually a Pk of 79% during the second Gulf War in 1991.

Doesn't that include WVR launches - you'd get that now I think if you took those.

Countermeasures are very effective right now.

Set your opponents CM to '0' and see what happens.

What sort of 'unclassified document' ? That covers a lot of ground, from official documents that were once classified, to an e-mail I might send you discussing AIM-7 ranges.

That's a bigger range than I've seen listed, & it is further than the missile wants to fly in DCS.

Without the loft logic in place, and launched from 12,000 m at a slightly higher closing target that I removed after launch, the missile flew away and reached 39.3 NM before it came back down to 12,000m, at which point it was travelling at 1,100 km/h.

It had travelled 40.5 NM before it hit the ground.

Does your document have a definition of what it means by 'aerodynamic range' ?

Just an update on this, I had the "lock" mapped to my first trigger stage, I think it "unlocked" when firing the missiles, so far I have killed 2 unarmed SU-25 which is 2 more than ever before!

However, the Radar doesnt pick the bogeys up until 5NM and my shoot is at about 3NM so not in the realms of BVR unless you have a back seat guide dog.

Will work on that next...

Doesn't that include WVR launches - you'd get that now I think if you took those.

I have no evidence like track files or tests, but I fired twice two Sparrows in WVR at a head on Mig-21, the first at a range of 5nm, the second at a range of 3nm and in both tests all missiles missed. That and the others comments make me believe that the Sparrow generally underperforms. (But this is nothing more than a believe.)

Are you firing as soon as you get a lock? What range approx, and are you firing within the NEZ?

It's not the chaff and it's not the pilot's process.

I set up a mission where I chase some C-130 Hercules flying at 200 kts. I have taken their chaff and flares away.

I pursue at about 400 kts.

I get a lock at about 19 NM range and a SHOOT prompt at 17 NM range. I had 4 sparrows available which I fired at different ranges.

1. Fired at 15 NM range. When it's about 9 NM from target, it turns to the left, away from the target.

2. fired at 11 NM range. When it's about 6 NM from target, it turns to the left, away from the target.This is shortly after the rocket engine has burned out. The missile at that point had a speed of about 500 kts.

3. fired at 8 NM range. When it's rocket engine is burned out it turns away to the left.

4. fired at 5 NM range. Hit and Kill.

I always made sure I kept illuminating the target. But it seems that the missile always lost track of the target shortly after its rocket engine was burned out. So for the time being I will not fire the Sparrow until I'm within about 5 NM range.

It seems to me that there is a huge discrepancy between the range where I see the "SHOOT" cue and the range where the missile can hit. I would think that there is a bug.

I believe the AIM - 7, do not have all their code in game. Is not working.

What sort of 'unclassified document' ? That covers a lot of ground, from official documents that were once classified, to an e-mail I might send you discussing AIM-7 ranges.

 

That's a bigger range than I've seen listed, & it is further than the missile wants to fly in DCS.

 

Without the loft logic in place, and launched from 12,000 m at a slightly higher closing target that I removed after launch, the missile flew away and reached 39.3 NM before it came back down to 12,000m, at which point it was travelling at 1,100 km/h.

It had travelled 40.5 NM before it hit the ground.

 

Does your document have a definition of what it means by 'aerodynamic range' ?

Hey Weta.

So the 53nmi range comes from the USAF F-4 weapons manual which states that at 40kft at M2.0 vs 40kft M2.0 the missile will have a maximum aerodynamic range of 53nmi. It defines RAero as "the maximum distance a missile can travel while still able to effectively maneuver against a target." This includes the number of g's necessary to perform strategic maneuvers.

This means that at the 53nmi intercept point the AIM-7F should have the energy to perform at least a 4g pull for a second to hit the target. This would require the missile to be approximately Mach 1. I'd like to note as this is the 7F, there is no lofting included in this flight profile.

I'd like to add that lofting is expected to increase this range by about 20% according to the F-15C -34, so you'd be looking at a 60nm+ sparrow.

AMRAAM does it even better thanks to lower drag and higher peak speed ;)

Edit: Regarding more 'normal' M1.2 co-alt/speed launches at 30000' or above, the relative range is close to 25nm. The Raero is close to 30nm.

The sparrow is also seeker limited but, against a fighter sized target the seeker's capability always exceeds the missile's range, with the exception of extremely long range launches like the M2 50k one. Use that against Tu-160.

This is strange! I tried the sparrow (AIM-7M) with the F-15C for three consecutive missions (very simple scenario: head on vs single high level Mig-29 without missiles): three successes (the Mig was hit at distances between 10- 20 nm and only in one case I had to use two sparrow). I try the sparrow with the F18 for the same three missions with the same opponent and ... disaster!! The missiles, exhausted the thrust of the engine, veer left or right without logic!

P.S. I have always been forced to destroy the Mig with a sidewinder.

Also according to me there is something wrong with the simulation of the sparrow used by the F-18.

Yeah Sparrow with F-15 is deadly. There's something wrong with the Hornet radar, I've tried the instant mission 4 hornets against 4 MiG-29, locked one MiG but it switched to other MiG by itself. Well Its still WIP I guess.

Maybe the Hornet got a new version of AIM-7M and it isn’t the same :music_whistling:

The AIM-7M on Hornet is supposed to get some options unavailable on FC3 F-15C.