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Old 06-29-2020, 09:25 PM   #211
Vertigo72
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I wouldnt really focus too much on the hours others claim. If you have oodles of experience with close formation flying, its gonna be a fair bit easier than then when you still have trouble just staying close to the tanker. And if you do, then maybe start there, just fly formation.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:30 PM   #212
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time alone isn't a guarantor of anything, if you aren't diagnosing your outcomes correctly you may well end up just baking in bad habits instead. bad habits are worse than no habits, because bad habits must first be broken before new habits can be learned.

i dont like the implication that somehow there is such a thing as being able to fly formation but not being able to aar. aar is flying formation. when you aar you are put to the test to see if you can really hold formation and the tolerance really isn't even that strict. if you can't even keep yourself inside like a 20ft box can you really honestly say you're capable of flying formation?

this is why the call for easy aar reeks to me. every concession made encourages more self deception, more bad habits that beget more lies and deception that require even more concessions to uphold. all these 'aids' that people want, from 'gates' to 'lines' all feed a pathological avoidance of the commitment that produces positive results. there is no substitute for simply practicing and honing your abilities, and there is no myth or magic or intensity of zeal required -- only genuine desire and commitment.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:41 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by probad View Post
time alone isn't a guarantor of anything, if you aren't diagnosing your outcomes correctly you may well end up just baking in bad habits instead. bad habits are worse than no habits, because bad habits must first be broken before new habits can be learned.

i dont like the implication that somehow there is such a thing as being able to fly formation but not being able to aar. aar is flying formation. when you aar you are put to the test to see if you can really hold formation and the tolerance really isn't even that strict. if you can't even keep yourself inside like a 20ft box can you really honestly say you're capable of flying formation?
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:19 AM   #214
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It sounds to me like some of you believe that if someone is committed they will make it happen no matter what their capabilities are. I do agree about the bad habits. The issue there is I have been through about 10 or 15 tutorials and I have gotten or surmised all kinds of advice. One said to put auto pilot on and that even though it disengages it still does something. Someone else recommended extending the air brake part way. Watching some people it appears they "lunge" at the basket in the final 10 feet and they are going so fast the refueling plane starts yelling break away. Much of this certainly is personal preference but at this point I am not sure what ends up a bad habit. Perhaps I should be diagnosing more along with the practice.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:43 AM   #215
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@OldFalcon I really wouldn't sweat it. The more you fixate on it, the more frustrated you'll get.

I was playing DCS for years until I completed my first AAR. I would set up a refueling mission, try, fail, try again and again for 15-30 minutes and finally get frustrated and give up. I'd do this a couple of times, every few months. Of course, that didn't produce results. I reached a point where I had done pretty much everything else, except learn how to AAR and fly formation. Granted, I had a really cheap stick (not even HOTAS) at the time, but this trend lasted for a year after I got my Warthog too. After making the decision to actually give it a real shot, I looked around and ended up with three things: 1) relax your fingers (don't have a death grip on the stick, which can happen if you get stressed or frustrated), 2) wiggle your toes, so you kind of remember to not let your body go stiff (again, because of the stress or concentration) and 3) don't set up a dedicated mission for AAR. You'll go in with the wrong mindset, predisposed.

Instead, make AAR just part of a mission, preferably after you've completed and are returning to base. You'll have downed some bandits, or done some CAS or whatever and you did your job, you're satisfied and you're returning to base to land, taxi and shut down, just to get that full DCS sortie experience. But your last task is to get some fuel from a tanker. You go, you try. If you manage, perfect. If you don't, it's OK, go back to base, land, taxi etc. You still leave the mission with a good feeling. You don't associate AAR with something bad.
After I applied the above, I had completed my first AAR within a couple of missions. And if it takes longer, that's OK. You're still playing DCS and doing all the other stuff you like in the meantime.
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:32 AM   #216
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i do believe anyone who puts in the correct sort of effort will be met with success. aar is not something that you need to be superhuman to accomplish, if it was, it wouldn't ever have been adopted in the first place.

one of the things that can lead you astray is right advice about wrong things. for example, if you have issues with pitch oscillations, you might directly account it to the stick; a preponderance of attention on the stick (like... curves) may well conceal the actual issue lying with pitch control using the throttle (maybe you have a wooden left hand). this can result in frustration where you think you're doing everything right (according to what you know) except you're not. the frustration is what leads to bad habits where you try all sorts of desperate measures to cope with incomplete understanding.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:21 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFalcon View Post
It sounds to me like some of you believe that if someone is committed they will make it happen no matter what their capabilities are.
For sure some would take much longer to learn the skill than the others but it's still possible (ever watched "People are amazing"?) unless one has some limitation/disability and it's been reported many times that better hardware will make it far easier. Same as with all other pilot skills.
What got me into AAR was pure challenge but if someone needs it for a mission I guess it's a big motivator to learn it. Before that I missed the skill but nowhere in my head came the idea to somehow get it cheap.
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Old 06-30-2020, 09:13 AM   #218
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draconus, we got your point by now. You are hardcore. You want it realer than real (except when it comes to things like G tolerance or proving theoretical knowledge). I bet if your smoke detector goes off while flying DCS you will land your DCS plane first before you "get out of the cockpit" to see whats burning. We are in awe. But this isnt for or about people like you.

I will also say the "anyone can learn it" argument is horse shit. Ive flown with enough RC and RL glider pilots with decades of experience to know some people will never acquire the fine motor skills that others are born with. I can teach just about anyone to fly an rc plane or drone, I can teach many to fly a freestyle drone, but no amount of practice will allow me or everyone to learn flying like this.

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Old 06-30-2020, 10:27 AM   #219
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This is all good advice. And it is nice to know that others have experienced what I am experiencing. Making AAR part of a mission sounds like a good idea. I am tired of fly - miss - fly again - miss. I have gotten to a point where I seem so close and yet can't get any farther. Hence the "drop back and punt" attitude for an easier AAR option. I can actually move right up to the basket and yet every time the basket suddenly drops out of site going right through the end of the refueling probe. Hence I think I do need to look at this issue of pitch control using the throttle. I remember a movie with Tom Selleck called "Mr. Baseball". Where he went from the winning attitude of "knock it out of the park" to "just don't miss" and ended up going from the Yankees to a Japanese league.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:22 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertigo72 View Post
I will also say the "anyone can learn it" argument is horse shit. Ive flown with enough RC and RL glider pilots with decades of experience to know some people will never acquire the fine motor skills that others are born with. I can teach just about anyone to fly an rc plane or drone, I can teach many to fly a freestyle drone, but no amount of practice will allow me or everyone to learn flying like this.
Exactly.

We need to understand that not all have same talents, skills, hardware or even time to learn to do one of the most challenging tasks in a aviation.

Here people make the formation flight sound like it is super easy and everyone can do it with couple hours training.

And then that it takes just couple hours to learn master the Air-to-Air refueling.

Yet in the reality, pilots do not clock two hours to be skilled in formation flying.
They do not clock couple hours to be masters in air refueling.
They do not clock couple hours to master carrier landing.

This is the common problem in every area of expertise, that some people are just talented for something that others are not, and no matter the skill these others are not to be as good as those some talented people.

And DCS is a game, its purpose is to be fun.

And that is where we need to make a separation, split. We need to allow easy and simple modes, assistance even for many tasks. Because there are people who gets enjoyment that way and they are happy!

But that does NOT mean that DCS is limited to that, as it can be made far more realistic, more demanding, far more difficult as in real life.
It is not "this or that", it can be both.

And some people does never understand that at all.

I have got flagged by many for my own personal set where I do not use mouse nor keyboard because they are not realistic. The immersion grows when you get to fly the aircraft with the same limitations as the real pilots does, meaning you can not check your six while you pull 9 G and you can't take your hands off from HOTAS when you pull 9 G, and you can't take your hands of your HOTAS middle of dog fight when you are keeping your eyes on target so you don't lose it etc. Such things to learn comes by hard way that you have only real functions bind to your HOTAS that real aircraft does have, nothing more, nothing less.

But that doesn't at all mean that everyone should be doing that, as some enjoy shooting water guns, some enjoy shooting nerf guns, some enjoy shooting paintball, some enjoy using BB, and then there is the real war with guns that kill, and some lives only when their lives are at risk.

It is not away from anyone that there would be easy air refueling function for those who just doesn't have the skill set to perform air refueling efficiently. It is not away from anyone. Not a bit by any means!
And it doesn't hurt their experience, nor learning to become better pilots when they use such a assistance feature. Completely opposite, as they learn to be relaxed, they learn to accept that they can do it, they learn to take it as just one step between other steps. And they could adjust the effect strength step by step as they need until they might get a skill level where they can just turn the feature off and be happy that they can do it now by their own skills!

Enjoyment from the start to the end, without frustrations, without feeling inferior etc.

But here some people are like that when their kids want to learn to drive a bicycle, that they o and they buy them a 28" racing bicycle and just say "Deal with it!".
No, everyone needs to start from the start. From the begin.
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