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Old 06-22-2020, 08:29 PM   #181
Vertigo72
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You would be very surprised then.....

So better start imagining more how people buy DCS as their first flight simulator....
Same way as they buy to X-plane. Or they even go to IL-2. Or they buy to Microsoft Flight.
IRL, people dont learn to fly on F18s. They learn it in gliders or cessna's or similar. If you are really new to flight sims, it makes complete sense to pick xplane or MS flight over DCS for a lot of reasons, but the plane models is also one of them.

But what if had a Cessna 172? Seriously. Maybe that should be the free module, not the TF51. And maybe some light twin engine civilian plane as paying module, something small/slow enough that map size isnt too much of an issue. It could even be fun in missions. Fly a covert mission transporting a VIP or fleeing a country in your stolen cessna, and dont get killed. Or be in a green team, killing greens counts as teamkills for both red and blue. Just like in most conflicts civilians are not intentionally shot at. And thats one thrill MS flight wont give you, the chance of getting shot down.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:37 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Vertigo72 View Post
IRL, people dont learn to fly on F18s. They learn it in gliders or cessna's or similar. If you are really new to flight sims, it makes complete sense to pick xplane or MS flight over DCS for a lot of reasons, but the plane models is also one of them.

But what if had a Cessna 172? Seriously. Maybe that should be the free module, not the TF51. And maybe some light twin engine civilian plane as paying module, something small/slow enough that map size isnt too much of an issue. It could even be fun in missions. Fly a covert mission transporting a VIP or fleeing a country in your stolen cessna, and dont get killed. Or be in a green team, killing greens counts as teamkills for both red and blue. Just like in most conflicts civilians are not intentionally shot at. And thats one thrill MS flight wont give you, the chance of getting shot down.

This is precisely why DCS needs to add a better free aircraft that is more ideal at training new pilots. Something like the T-34 Mentor is what the Navy used for a long time to train new pilots. Then the T-2 Buckeye was the intermediate step up which has been replaced by the T-45. But as I had mentioned before in a different threat the T-2 would probably be the most ideal and realistic to get added for free since it is an older and simpler aircraft. Plus by it having a tail hook it would better prepare new pilots to land on aircraft carriers. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=265902




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Old 06-23-2020, 01:08 AM   #183
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This is something that we need to simply accept, that there needs to be multiplayer servers for GAME mode and for SIM mode.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from making a game mode server now. Except it would likely be unpopulated. I don’t think many DCS players use game mode. Obviously enough use it to justify ED including it though. I still can’t see why anyone would pay $80 for an F-16 and use it in game mode.
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Old 06-23-2020, 04:58 AM   #184
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This is precisely why DCS needs to add a better free aircraft that is more ideal at training new pilots. Something like the T-34 Mentor is what the Navy used for a long time to train new pilots.
It may be a great trainer, but I dont see the mass market appeal for a sim. The only people who know it, are in to military flying anyhow. A cessna is something everyone recognizes, and anyone who may have any aspiration to ever fly IRL is likely to fly.

If it where up to me, Id also offer all combat planes and helicopters for free. Just demilitarized. No weapons, no radar. Maybe no online play. I dont think it would meaningfully hurt sales, I cant imagine anyone who is in to DCS now would settle for that. But it might make it worth for others to actually try DCS, spend the time needed to learning to fly a plane. And then want more.
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Old 06-23-2020, 06:32 AM   #185
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IRL, people dont learn to fly on F18s. They learn it in gliders or cessna's or similar.
Yes, but they do so because of risks and money. Apart from immersion by going rookie path there is no reason to learn anything other in the sim that you wouldn't fly later. Btw: even civilians don't start in gliders.
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Old 06-23-2020, 07:00 AM   #186
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immersion by going rookie path there is no reason to learn anything other in the sim that you wouldn't fly later.
There are plenty of reasons actually. Those trainers are much more forgiving, easier to learn, easier to land, and allow students to focus on the basics. You learn faster in them than you would in a high performance plane, .

Test pilots are also required to fly on as many completely different plane types as possible, because it increases your skills in ways you can not by flying just 1 type. And simple planes teaches you skills and helps you understand flight in ways a modern fly by wire jet can not. Just like you want kids to learn to drive in a family saloon and not a Lamborghini, and you want to learn how to race in a cart, not a formula 1. its not just because those are cheaper. They are better tools to learn.

Which is particularly true for gliders btw; you say "even civilians" dont train in gliders, many do, but also many airforces do. Not just because its cheaper, but you actually learn things in gliders like how to conserve energy and the importance of coordinated turns that do help you in combat. Gliding skills also allowed the captain of Air Canada Flight 143 to land his 767 with no engines, not many other pilots are trained in slip manœuvres to adjust your glide slope. Its definitely not part of 767 type rating. I also highly doubt Flight 447 crash would have happened if their pilots had any gliding experience, or more cessna hours.

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Old 06-23-2020, 07:30 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Vertigo72 View Post
IRL, people dont learn to fly on F18s. They learn it in gliders or cessna's or similar. If you are really new to flight sims, it makes complete sense to pick xplane or MS flight over DCS for a lot of reasons, but the plane models is also one of them.
Welcome Yak-52, L-39 and your chosen.....

All from the primary to basic and advanced.

Quote:
But what if had a Cessna 172? Seriously. Maybe that should be the free module, not the TF51.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=162399

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And maybe some light twin engine civilian plane as paying module, something small/slow enough that map size isnt too much of an issue. It could even be fun in missions. Fly a covert mission transporting a VIP or fleeing a country in your stolen cessna, and dont get killed. Or be in a green team, killing greens counts as teamkills for both red and blue. Just like in most conflicts civilians are not intentionally shot at. And thats one thrill MS flight wont give you, the chance of getting shot down.
You can do that with L-39 or Yak-52 or similar.

IMHO we need some small cargo and passenger aircrafts. Twin engine ones with 7-9 passenger seats, capable carry 1500 kg or so.

An-32 or C-123 or HC-144 are big ones, but would be nice in DCS.
But we need as well targets for COIN, like beechcraft 18 or An-28 and An-2.

But nothing in DCS denies now from learning to fly. Nothing. It has game modes, it allows to sit as passenger in track etc. And it is a simulator, not a real life where making an error kills you.

DCS is great for first experience, there is no need for others.

Where it lacks are the ground procedures, airport procedures and such that would be required, but we are talking about knowing how to fly (controls for pitch, roll, rudder etc, how to gain altitude, speed, slow down etc).
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Old 06-23-2020, 07:45 AM   #188
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There’s nothing stopping anyone from making a game mode server now. Except it would likely be unpopulated. I don’t think many DCS players use game mode. Obviously enough use it to justify ED including it though. I still can’t see why anyone would pay $80 for an F-16 and use it in game mode.
For same reason as someone buys a series of other arcade flight games for a console....

To have fun.

This is why FC3 is great package. And why MAC would have been nice as "FC4" in DCS instead standalone, but it will sell...

Game mode is not meant to be final mode to fly, but begin.
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Old 06-23-2020, 07:59 AM   #189
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DCS is great for first experience, there is no need for others.
Im talking about appeal. There is nothing wrong with a Yak 52 as trainer (provided you can get an english cockpit). Its just unfamiliar and appeals to no one outside a small niche. And its 40 euro with no "growth path". Add to that you can only fly it in Caucasus, which hardly anyone could locate on a world map, without spending more money, you cant fly in any place you are likely to be familiar with, and its kinda hard to see anyone looking in to getting in to flighsims going that route over xplane.

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Where it lacks are the ground procedures, airport procedures and such that would be required, but we are talking about knowing how to fly (controls for pitch, roll, rudder etc, how to gain altitude, speed, slow down etc).
Its not enough that DCS would be suitable, because I agree, it is. But it also needs to be "marketable". Go to DCS website with the mindset of a flightsim noob with no skills. Does that look the right choice for a first sim? Not to me. Then start counting what it costs to get a few planes and places to fly, and those customers are gone forever.

So I get why they want a separate product to appeal to "flight sim noobs". I just think it could be the same product, with different models, different marketing and different pricing structure. By all means give it its own name if need be, but make it fully compatible with DCSW.

Last edited by Vertigo72; 06-23-2020 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:27 AM   #190
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Its not enough that DCS would be suitable, because I agree, it is. But it also needs to be "marketable". Go to DCS website with the mindset of a flightsim noob with no skills. Does that look the right choice for a first sim? Not to me. Then start counting what it costs to get a few planes and places to fly, and those customers are gone forever.
Free Caucasus with Su-25T and TF-51 are more than enough to get you started and decide if you're into it. If you happen to like the aircraft (one for ground pounding and the other for GA) it's actually mind blowing that you have all this for FREE - I mean endless possiblities with campaigns, missions, MP, ME, whole Caucasus map (with seasons, day/night, wheather), all DCSW units available as AI or human in MP - you can play for years and you even get tech support.
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