flight model question

I like to fly the F-15C.

My question is this: In a one circle dogfight when an AI Mig-29 is pulling as hard as I am, how can the Mig retain enough speed to go vertical after the initial turn and I bleed all of my speed to the point that I'm getting the stall horn at 150 knots?

What was your load out? How much fuel did you have? What altitude? What was your speed when the turn started? And do you know that AI withing DCS does not use same flight model we use.

even if we disregard the ai flight model, being a zombie and copying the other aircraft's moves is the surest way to lose the fight.

fly your own best parameters and use geometry to put yourself where you want to be instead.

even if we disregard the ai flight model, being a zombie and copying the other aircraft's moves is the surest way to lose the fight.

 

fly your own best parameters and use geometry to put yourself where you want to be instead.

you do you, bro

What was your load out? How much fuel did you have? What altitude? What was your speed when the turn started? And do you know that AI withing DCS does not use same flight model we use.

clean jet, full internal fuel, 10,000ft, 400-420kts because anything higher causes black out. Why doesn't AI use the same flight model as us. What's the fun in that? So the AI cheats?

The only thing that cause blackout is G, not speed. Your flying tactics are not where they should be, that's why your being left low and slow. If you see you've won the turn, why conjure pulling g?

The only thing that cause blackout is G, not speed. Your flying tactics are not where they should be, that's why your being left low and slow. If you see you've won the turn, why conjure pulling g?

I'm seriously regretting joining these forums. Are you trying to troll me? I'm not even a pilot and I understand that going faster means pulling more G's to maintain the same turn as if you were going slower.

I'm seriously regretting joining these forums. Are you trying to troll me? I'm not a pilot and I understand that going faster means pulling more G's to maintain the same turn as if you were going slower.

I'm not trying to troll you. This is my limited analysis based upon your limited report :)

So the question remains, what's happening in your one circle, and if you see that you're winning the one circle, why do you continue expending your speed? (if that's what's happening).

These are things to think about. There's no simple answer because so much stuff can happen.

For example, if he's doing 500kts, why would one be slowing to 150? He's never going to be able to beat a 420kts aircraft a one circle, so there's no need to bleed that much speed.

I'm not trying to troll you. This is my limited analysis based upon your limited report :)

 

So the question remains, what's happening in your one circle, and if you see that you're winning the one circle, why do you continue expending your speed? (if that's what's happening).

 

These are things to think about. There's no simple answer because so much stuff can happen.

For example, if he's doing 500kts, why would one be slowing to 150? He's never going to be able to beat a 420kts aircraft a one circle, so there's no need to bleed that much speed.

We merge very close to the same speed and same altitude. I'm usually going about 50kts faster than him I would say. I pull a tiny bit harder than the AI and get inside its turn. From here the AI either goes inverted and pulls down to descend and I follow or goes vertical and turns around to come back at me head to head.

this is what it looks like when the AI pulls inverted and descends:

Going faster when planning a one-circle is typically a mistake. It might work against the AI but human pilots will just destroy you with that mistake.

Your turn in that video starts too early. It's practically a no-respect lead turn. A human player would be on your six here and it would just look like magic.

All in all, the AI is turning too slow and keeping too much speed.

Also, you're just pulling too much stick when chasing him - be a little more patient, relax the stick until you're not getting the excessive AoA tone, let your speed build a bit.

We merge very close to the same speed and same altitude. I'm usually going about 50kts faster than him I would say. I pull a tiny bit harder than the AI and get inside its turn. From here the AI either goes inverted and pulls down to descend and I follow or goes vertical and turns around to come back at me head to head.

 

this is what it looks like when the AI pulls inverted and descends:

clean jet, full internal fuel, 10,000ft, 400-420kts because anything higher causes black out. Why doesn't AI use the same flight model as us. What's the fun in that? So the AI cheats?

In fairness, the simple AI flight model can cause problems, but it's not necessarily cheating. It's an OK model for a modern jet fighter behavior wise. The AI runs a simpler model probably to be less taxing on your PC and because of the heritage of the game (DCS being built up from LOMAC and Flanker). Accuracy of the model for a specific aircraft is another question, but I think most of the modern jets are reasonable. Perhaps someone else has done testing.

If you post a track, maybe it will be easier to help, though I understand if you can't. I just tried to make a demo track, only a few minute longs and it went stupid before I killed the MiG. It's good for the first half or so though (there is a point where I unload, accelerate, pull vertical and out last the MiG in the climb - the track goes wrong at some point shortly after that).

1.5.6 F-15C vs MiG-29A.trk

Going faster when planning a one-circle is typically a mistake. It might work against the AI but human pilots will just destroy you with that mistake.

 

Your turn in that video starts too early. It's practically a no-respect lead turn. A human player would be on your six here and it would just look like magic.

 

All in all, the AI is turning too slow and keeping too much speed.

 

Also, you're just pulling too much stick when chasing him - be a little more patient, relax the stick until you're not getting the excessive AoA tone, let your speed build a bit.

The AI turns early so I turn early against AI.

No, you're turning disastrously early. At the very least this should have been a 2-circle if you want to turn that early.

But ok, you don't believe me, fine :)

The assumptions written in that video's description are also wrong. The F-15 performs like an F-15 at all altitudes - it matches the real F-15 charts.

In fairness, the simple AI flight model can cause problems, but it's not necessarily cheating. It's an OK model for a modern jet fighter behavior wise. The AI runs a simpler model probably to be less taxing on your PC and because of the heritage of the game (DCS being built up from LOMAC and Flanker). Accuracy of the model for a specific aircraft is another question, but I think most of the modern jets are reasonable. Perhaps someone else has done testing.

 

If you post a track, maybe it will be easier to help, though I understand if you can't. I just tried to make a demo track, only a few minute longs and it went stupid before I killed the MiG. It's good for the first half or so though (there is a point where I unload, accelerate, pull vertical and out last the MiG in the climb - the track goes wrong at some point shortly after that).

By track do you mean youtube video or Tacview?

Tacview is always a good thing to post, you can get a lot of analysis from it.

By track do you mean youtube video or Tacview?

Every time you fly, a track is created. So when you quit, you should see on the screen the option to save the track. This will be on the debrief screen. Some people have problems with the track not showing what happened during the flight. Anyway, you can save that track, post it here, and people can view what you are doing and maybe point out what is happening.

Here is the simple answer. The AI needs some help. There are many variables but sometimes the AI can pull stupid stuff. Though once you get really good with the F15c you'll find killing them in a breeze.

Yeah I would agree - Tacview program is great for analysing a fight after the fact. I have noticed the same thing sometimes, but going back to Tacview track and you see the AI entered the pull-up less aggressively and with more speed for example.

You 'think' you have exactly the same parameters as the AI at the time, but looking at 'actual' data might answer some of your questions.

Tacview has a great deal of data available such as potential and kinetic energy, turn rate, G, various airspeeds etc etct - very useful!

Any of you guys want to dogfight me? You know, since I'm just a cloooown with no skill that doesn't know how to fly the F-15. All of you wise sages could teach me a lesson real good a few times over. I'm sure all of you would make easy work out of dogfighting me. Guns only, no head to head kills, start out head to head 10 miles apart left to left, when we pass fight is on and spank me real good. I'm flying the F-15. You fly whatever you're comfortable in/like the most.

The AI needs all the help it can get.

These sages could probably teach you a lot more than you realise but for now maybe just keep practicing to kill the AI at the 2nd pass instead of taking 3 bites at it.

Then you could just try controlling and prolonging the fight instead of trying to kill him as fast as possible, that way you'll learn and control the aircrafts limitations rather than kid yourself into thinking its not working like a real F-15.

The AI is like a poor training partner, he wants you to kill him and doesn't want to kill you but if make really stupid mistakes he'll punish you.

Haha sure I think most of us would happily dogfight ya, but only if you promise to actually listen to the advice we give you after the fact. ;)

You ask what you can do differently, why you're losing, then when folks offer some suggestions you seem to be getting mad that they're not what you want to hear...

Haha sure I think most of us would happily dogfight ya, but only if you promise to actually listen to the advice we give you after the fact. ;)

 

You ask what you can do differently, why you're losing, then when folks offer some suggestions you seem to be getting mad that they're not what you want to hear...

I'm okay with that. I'm a good loser. I have good sportsmanship.

When is a good time for you? Where can I find you? Do you have a teamspeak I can join?

Is there a way I can turn down the sensitivity of my flight stick when I fly the F-15?

I think a major reason I'm always cranking the stick is because of how sensitive it is. I'm barely pulling at all on my flight stick, but the F-15 is super sensitive in that way.

I'll shoot you a PM and we can find a good time to meet up. :thumbup:

I will be happy to host something or send you a .miz if you'd prefer to host, or if you have something built already that's fine too. I have a PVP map we use for squad training more or less set up as you describe already; A/C start about 5 miles apart, merge, then fight's on. We can bump that to ten if you'd prefer but with a gentlemens' agreement not to fire in the merge I've found five miles to be plenty of time to find the other guy and get set up.

I do have a Teamspeak we can use. I'm on the East Coast of the US. I do concert production for a living so my work schedule is all over the place, but I'm usually good for weekday afternoons/early evenings and late nights.

EDIT:

Yes you can! In the control page, under axis settings, select the pitch or roll axis from your joystick and press the "Axis tune" button. Try a curve of 15 or so to start with; this will give you much finer control. I wouldn't recommend using the saturation to cut off the top end of the axis response, you'll find you want full authority in the event you need to kick the jet over out of a stall.

I'll shoot you a PM and we can find a good time to meet up. :thumbup:

 

I will be happy to host something or send you a .miz if you'd prefer to host, or if you have something built already that's fine too. I have a PVP map we use for squad training more or less set up as you describe already; A/C start about 5 miles apart, merge, then fight's on. We can bump that to ten if you'd prefer but with a gentlemens' agreement not to fire in the merge I've found five miles to be plenty of time to find the other guy and get set up.

 

I do have a Teamspeak we can use. I'm on the East Coast of the US. I do concert production for a living so my work schedule is all over the place, but I'm usually good for weekday afternoons/early evenings and late nights.

 

EDIT:

Yes you can! In the control page, under axis settings, select the pitch or roll axis from your joystick and press the "Axis tune" button. Try a curve of 15 or so to start with; this will give you much finer control. I wouldn't recommend using the saturation to cut off the top end of the axis response, you'll find you want full authority in the event you need to kick the jet over out of a stall.

I'm on DCS 1.5. The only map I have is the Caucasus. Sadly I cannot host public servers. When I try it always makes DCS crash.