VKB Noob Questions - My Quest to replace my Warthog Gimbal

My history:

• Long-time simmer of about 35 years (no joke)...
  
• Still in search of a better gimbal - best so far was a TM Cougar modded with the Uber NXT
  
• Currently have the TMWH stick (with 7.5 mm extension) and throttle - I love both but the WH gimbal is lacking even after a full refurb/regrease, etc...
  
• I'm thinking the Virpil WARBRD may be currently the best bang for the buck
  

Questions:

1) What can I expect from the gimbal? Am I correct in assuming it will perform just like the Cougar NXT (no center bump) with smooth spring action that increases with distance from the center for some "force feedback" indication?

2) How on earth can I expect the Software to work? Am I correct to assume I will now need to run the TM software for the throttle and now the VIRPIL software just for the stick? If I use the TM WH handle does that change anything? Do I still use the VIRPIL Software for the stick or can I keep using TARGET?

Best option for your case would have been a MongoosT-50 base. But it was discontinued in October 2018.

WarBRD base works with the Warthog grip, but using that heavy grip and a 75 mm extension might be too much.

The behavior of the gimbal can be changed by using different cams and springs. Some have a clear center detent, some don't (or less pronounced). The force increase as you deflect the grip also varies from cam to cam. WarBRD comes with two types of springs and with two types of cams (and a third type of cam -WarBRD Cosmosim - is sold separately - make sure you get that, too, in case you get a WarBRD).

You will only use VPC (Virpil) software. TARGET only works with the Thrustmaster base. So the base/gimbal base determines which software you can use. Not the grip.

Right now WarBRD is not in stock, but they are supposed to restock today, at 6pm-9pm GMT (UTC). The stocks usually don't last long.

I have used the VPC MT-50 for over a year. Wrote a review here.

I haven’t used the WarBRD, but I have used the BRD-N, from the same designer. Review here.

The BRD-N has the same type of dual scissor cams as the WarBRD, typical for Baurs designs.

The way these scissor cams distribute the centering force is ingenious! It is really smooth around center, and force increases towards the end of travel. I too had the Cougar, with Uber NXT gimbal and hall sensors. The Warthog plastic gimbal works great, but will wear out. And if you subject the stick to rotational loads, it will break.

I bet you will be very pleased with any of these joystick bases.

The only downside is that you can’t use the TM software for programming. But I haven’t missed it since the days of the Cougar. The VPC Config software is really only for updating firmware and calibration. Modern sims allow for detailed key assignment in the controller setup, so the need for advanced macro programming is a distant memory, for me.

I just got a warbrd in addition to my t50.

And it is an impressive kit. If not more sturdy than the t50. and swapping cams and tweaking springs was easier.

The cams are the ones that decide what wether it has a bump or not.

By default it comes mounted with the inbetween cams, that is a light center, very light and slight resistance build-up towards the end of deflection.

You also get cams for high endpoint resistance and no center.

I need no curves or anything to fly helicopters etc.

If center is 50% you can easily get 49-51% output if you want and when you want it.

And as you would expect these axes are independent. You can apply 100-0% on one and whatever output on the other. Granted I could do that with the ch fighterstick, but that also had 8% noise on the pots.

Out of the box it's deflection on the stick is slightly more than the t50 which has a 5cm extension so it simply don't need it so this could probably be mounted a little higher.

I am currently using the light springs on both and the cosmo-sim cam variety. I know thats not up to simulation standards for most but that's where the swappable springs and cams come in.

Change any combination of those and it will feel like a completely different gimbal.

And personally prefer a precise and easy movement across the range and this gives me just that.

If you for instance try the default or high force-no center cam and the harder springs, included with gimbal, you should easily be able to use an extension in this too.

But you will most likely need half the extension you normally would anyways.

Only x factor would be your grip, but if you wonder I can heartily recommend either of the virpil grips as well...

I'm using the WarBRD with the TM grip. It works great. The WarBRD without question, is a much better, more precise base.

I'm not using an extension. The grip is a little bit heavier than the Virpil ones. Regardless, I like this setup so much more than the original TM base gimbal base. I would agree a large extension is probably not something you'd want to use with the WarBRD though.

Thanks so much for the replies! Ok here is some more info:

Regarding clarification of the “perfect” gimbal from my POV:

As I mentioned the Uber NXT was near perfect for me. IIR, it had basically zero resistance at the center, yet it could stay centered. As you deflected the stick, the resistance ramped up fairly linearly. At first I was a bit “meh” on this but within a week or 2 of flying I loved it as center movements were very precise and there was an automatic force-feedback type of element there that helped tweak muscle memory even more due to the resistance changes with position.

As another general comments… I also looked at the VKB option and it looked “just as good” but the company doesn’t look as future proof and availability of the products may be even worse. Should I still be looking at that as an option or is VIRPIL probably the better option at this point?

Best option for your case would have been a MongoosT-50 base. But it was discontinued in October 2018.

Yes, after researching I thought I’d missed the boat, but after additional researching the WarBRD seems beefier and more ingenious… The only drawback being it’s assumption of a no-extension stick… The perfect stick sounds like the WarBRD tweaked to accept an extension if desired…

WarBRD base works with the Warthog grip, but using that heavy grip and a 75 mm extension might be too much.

Roger that. 75mm extension is considered pretty small but I’m as worried about too large a stick throw as much as anything… But… Truthfully, I never wanted an extension in the first place in my cockpit setup – I only did that to further refine the “feel” of the stick to better smooth out the WH “feel” that much more… I like the stick to be angled (tilted) forward about 10 degrees and this alone (with the great weight of the TM grip make it a no-go so I may get the VPC grip too which I believe is taller anyway to save the weight and still be able to have the handle tilted forward about 10 degrees. Ergonomically, that just feels “correct” and most like a real cockpit. Additionally, I am right handed and prefer the Centerline of the stick to be about 15 degrees CCW when the stick is mounted on the chair between my legs which also gives a more ergonomic cockpit representation.

The behavior of the gimbal can be changed by using different cams and springs. Some have a clear center detent, some don't (or less pronounced). The force increase as you deflect the grip also varies from cam to cam. WarBRD comes with two types of springs and with two types of cams (and a third type of cam -WarBRD Cosmosim - is sold separately - make sure you get that, too, in case you get a WarBRD).

What characteristics does the WarBRD with Cosmosim display?

You will only use VPC (Virpil) software. TARGET only works with the Thrustmaster base. So the base/gimbal base determines which software you can use. Not the grip.

Ok, so I will need to use only VPC for the WarBRD, but I’ll be using TARGET for my WH Throttle, yes?

Right now WarBRD is not in stock, but they are supposed to restock today, at 6pm-9pm GMT (UTC). The stocks usually don't last long.

Yes, I saw that on the VIRPIL site. Ready with the Credit Card… If I order the entire gimbal base and a grip it looks like ~$378 USD shipped. Yikes… I guess if I don’t like it someone else will if I need to sell it…

I have used the VPC MT-50 for over a year. Wrote a review here.

I haven’t used the WarBRD, but I have used the BRD-N, from the same designer. Review here.

Thanks much. As soon as I get a chance, I’ll read the BRD-N…

The BRD-N has the same type of dual scissor cams as the WarBRD, typical for Baurs designs.

The way these scissor cams distribute the centering force is ingenious! It is really smooth around center, and force increases towards the end of travel. I too had the Cougar, with Uber NXT gimbal and hall sensors. The Warthog plastic gimbal works great, but will wear out. And if you subject the stick to rotational loads, it will break.

I bet you will be very pleased with any of these joystick bases.

You are the (almost) the person I was fishing for! I was hoping to get a direct comparison from the Uber NXT to the WarBRD. It sounds like it will have similar characteristics but be that much more rugged.

The only downside is that you can’t use the TM software for programming. But I haven’t missed it since the days of the Cougar. The VPC Config software is really only for updating firmware and calibration. Modern sims allow for detailed key assignment in the controller setup, so the need for advanced macro programming is a distant memory, for me.

Well, the macro-type use of my WH is very limited at best -- primarily just button assignments anyway so hopefully it will be fine… Does Virpil SW need to be loaded before the flight? So, it sounds like I’ll fire up VIRPIL SW before a flight to control the gimbal and TARGET before the flight to control the throttle?

I just got a warbrd in addition to my t50.

And it is an impressive kit. If not more sturdy than the t50. and swapping cams and tweaking springs was easier.

The cams are the ones that decide what wether it has a bump or not.

By default it comes mounted with the inbetween cams, that is a light center, very light and slight resistance build-up towards the end of deflection.

You also get cams for high endpoint resistance and no center.

 

I need no curves or anything to fly helicopters etc.

If center is 50% you can easily get 49-51% output if you want and when you want it.

 

And as you would expect these axes are independent. You can apply 100-0% on one and whatever output on the other. Granted I could do that with the ch fighterstick, but that also had 8% noise on the pots.

 

 

Out of the box it's deflection on the stick is slightly more than the t50 which has a 5cm extension so it simply don't need it so this could probably be mounted a little higher.

 

I am currently using the light springs on both and the cosmo-sim cam variety. I know thats not up to simulation standards for most but that's where the swappable springs and cams come in.

 

Change any combination of those and it will feel like a completely different gimbal.

 

And personally prefer a precise and easy movement across the range and this gives me just that.

 

If you for instance try the default or high force-no center cam and the harder springs, included with gimbal, you should easily be able to use an extension in this too.

I’ll try the default first I think but will probably migrate to what you describe in the final sentence of the above part of your post. Thanks for the detailed explanation from your POV…

But you will most likely need half the extension you normally would anyways.

 

Only x factor would be your grip, but if you wonder I can heartily recommend either of the virpil grips as well...

IIR, the Mongoose grip is “taller” and sits a few cm higher that the WH grip so I’d assume it will feel very similar to what I have now in terms of “deflection feel”

I'm using the WarBRD with the TM grip. It works great. The WarBRD without question, is a much better, more precise base.

 

 

I'm not using an extension. The grip is a little bit heavier than the Virpil ones. Regardless, I like this setup so much more than the original TM base gimbal base. I would agree a large extension is probably not something you'd want to use with the WarBRD though.

It’s been a few years with the extension, but I’m sure I can retrain my muscles to appreciate a “no extension” sort of feel that I flew with for many years… Not as good for helis though… Thanks for your comments which are helpful in this decision process.

I think it's mostly about precision and response. With good precision you won't miss the range of movement.

The cosmosim cams has the same centering as the default, it is a very slight center, the springs themselves do most of the centering anyways.

And I have no issue hovering the huey on the center point, with out any in game deadzones or curves, it just responds perfectly.

The difference between default and cosmo is the reduced force needed to push to the end of the deflection.

And even without the extension the Warbrd I just got has a another few cm of motion than my t50, I have them setup for right hand and left hand use in my space planes, which is more arcady and you need to push 100% on an axes often. This is not something you would want in a sim though, but I prefer it this way personally, it could be a little 'fly by wire'.

And as mention, since it is precise I have no problem not to go full even if I don't have much physical resistance.

The no center high edge force cam's for instance could probably be more appropriate for warbirds and the like, but it is a partial disassembly job to switch out and I'm very happy as is so don't see much reason to try :P

As for the software.

The VPC configurator is only needed for calibration and setup.

All settings including button maps etc is then loaded onto the gimbal's chipsets directlt and run off the stick.

Even if you took that stick and moved over to another PC it would still be calibrated and setup as before, unlike Target it does noe have to be even looked at until you need to recalibrate, which is something you would really only need until you switch grips, or change cam's etc.

Unless something is really wrong there should be no drift on these. At all.

I was going months without needing to recalibrate my t-50, and I see no different with this one.

I have my WarBRD setup with the delta grip which also has an xbx style analog thumbstick that I have through the VPC loaded a curve one those two that allows me as detailed controll on that as I would like even for games that doesn't allow for setting curves.

But that's the only two axes on a virpil product I have found needing curves.

As for VKB, well I don't knoiw, nothing says to me they aren't serious, and I even have a pre order in for a gunfighter and mcg-pro combo that I should probably cancel.

It's not like I have a third arm somewhere, or even would need one...

Your thread title mentions VKB instead of VPC.

As another general comments… I also looked at the VKB option and it looked “just as good” but the company doesn’t look as future proof and availability of the products may be even worse. Should I still be looking at that as an option or is VIRPIL probably the better option at this point?

I would not say that. But in your case a big plus for the Virpil option is that you can use your Warthog grip on their base without any adapter (you can use the Warthog grip on a VKB Gunfighter base, too, but it requires to mount an adapter in the Warthog grip).

On the other hand, VKB has a US dealer.

Roger that. 75mm extension is considered pretty small but I’m as worried about too large a stick throw as much as anything… But… Truthfully, I never wanted an extension in the first place in my cockpit setup – I only did that to further refine the “feel” of the stick to better smooth out the WH “feel” that much more… I like the stick to be angled (tilted) forward about 10 degrees and this alone (with the great weight of the TM grip make it a no-go so I may get the VPC grip too which I believe is taller anyway to save the weight and still be able to have the handle tilted forward about 10 degrees. Ergonomically, that just feels “correct” and most like a real cockpit. Additionally, I am right handed and prefer the Centerline of the stick to be about 15 degrees CCW when the stick is mounted on the chair between my legs which also gives a more ergonomic cockpit representation.

Center mount is not an issue. The tilting, especially with Warthog grip and possibly even with an extension, might be (it might not stay centered if you let it go).

If you are not getting an extension, you should get their desk mount + adapter plate for WarBRD (or only the adapter plate and mount it somehow). Although they say WarBRD is a desktop base, the total height (especially with their grips) is kind of high. It will work better with a mount which allows it to be installed in a lower position.

What characteristics does the WarBRD with Cosmosim display?

I have the MongoosT-50 base+ Warthog grip. Assuming the WarBRD Cosmosim cams give a similar feel as MongoosT-50 Cosmosim cams (and by the reports of some people they are similar), you should get a "no center" feel (meaning no "notch" in the center), combined with only a slight increase of force as you move the grip towards the full deflection.

Ok, so I will need to use only VPC for the WarBRD, but I’ll be using TARGET for my WH Throttle, yes?

Correct. If you want, you can use TARGET for Warthog throttle.

VPC software is only used for firmware updates, loading profiles (for the base + grip combination you use), calibration and button assignments. Once these are done, the changes are saved into the base firmware and the software is not needed until you want to make another change. Some functions are not yet available in Virpil Configuration software (such as mapping joystick buttons to keypresses - you need other software to do that).

Yes, I saw that on the VIRPIL site. Ready with the Credit Card… If I order the entire gimbal base and a grip it looks like ~$378 USD shipped. Yikes… I guess if I don’t like it someone else will if I need to sell it…

Yeah. Shipping cost to US is expensive. On the bright side, you are not paying 21% VAT (on the total cost, including shipping).

I use joystick Gremlin for the software to replace the target. It works really well, easy to program, and you can use it for every joystick. Nice thing is you can switch profiles on the fly so going from the A10 to Av8 to F18 is seemless.

I´m very happy with my T-50 base & Warthog stick. I was lucky to find a seller here, on these forums, for the base.

It feels amazing.

Regarding software, you will run Virpil the very first day to setup the combo (base+joy), and then programming the buttons and hats from DCS Options Controls window. It can be tricky, some consider the software as a "rite of passage", but worry not, there are plenty of people with know-how skills to help.

On a sidenote, reading your budget, have you considered realsimulator stuff?

VKB Noob Questions - My Quest to replace my Warthog Gimbal

 

Correct. If you want, you can use TARGET for Warthog throttle.

 

Wrong ! You can use TARGET only for your stick and throttle. Including axis curves and deadzones. All you need to do is use the correct mode, PID & VID when configuring the base.

I’ve done it and kept my TARGET script.

Cheers,

Wrong ! You can use TARGET only for your stick and throttle. Including axis curves and deadzones. All you need to do is use the correct mode, PID & VID when configuring the base.

 

I’ve done it and kept my TARGET script.

 

Cheers,

Yeah, I know about changing VID and PID. That post you quoted was from 3 months ago. At that time nobody tried this method.