Gazelle Flight Dynamics... Again.

How explain this

For those who believe the Gazelle is modeled correctly and asked for specific flight model issues to be listed rather than 'issues with feel' this video from MAD_MIKE is a prime example and is a specific issue which I have listed in several previous threads. That being, the lack of interaction between torque and cyclic pitch. I don't care how many real world hours anyone has on the Gazelle, stating the flight model is accurate while this issue is present is a clear indication they are either not taking the testing seriously or choose to ignore the obvious flaws.

Probably unknown to many (as I never saw it listed in a changelog) Polychop did include a flight model update in 2.0 which has the helicopter hover one skid low. If modeled correctly then this behavior should not be possible in 2.0 so it is worth testing for comparison. I think it only fair to point out that the FM is obviously still receiving attention. Credit to Polychop where it's due. It's high time the 'real pilots signed off on it' argument be put to bed though as the above video clearly illustrates more work is needed.

Keep in mind, the Hueys blades in DCS are the metal ones, which huge inertia, compared to the Gazelles composite blades. ;)

Actually is exactly the other way around. Everybody wanted to chop trees and be thrown away like a puppet by the rotor like in "Chickenhawk" but BST said they had only a newer Huey with composite rotor blades to work with.

So there goes this too.

In this time im flying with asymmetric weapon load

Actually is exactly the other way around. Everybody wanted to chop trees and be thrown away like a puppet by the rotor like in "Chickenhawk" but BST said they had only a newer Huey with composite rotor blades to work with.

So there goes this too.

Interesting, this does not match the performance and manual. :huh:

If they have the composite blades, the max torque is strangely low?

Irritating...

For those who believe the Gazelle is modeled correctly and asked for specific flight model issues to be listed rather than 'issues with feel' this video from MAD_MIKE is a prime example and is a specific issue which I have listed in several previous threads. That being, the lack of interaction between torque and cyclic pitch. I don't care how many real world hours anyone has on the Gazelle, stating the flight model is accurate while this issue is present is a clear indication they are either not taking the testing seriously or choose to ignore the obvious flaws.

 

Probably unknown to many (as I never saw it listed in a changelog) Polychop did include a flight model update in 2.0 which has the helicopter hover one skid low. If modeled correctly then this behavior should not be possible in 2.0 so it is worth testing for comparison. I think it only fair to point out that the FM is obviously still receiving attention. Credit to Polychop where it's due. It's high time the 'real pilots signed off on it' argument be put to bed though as the above video clearly illustrates more work is needed.

Okay when you say 2.0 is that the version that I got when I purchased the Gazelle for DCS world 2.0.x as that model isn't valid for 1.5 as I understand it that would be a separate purchase and download via Steam?

Okay when you say 2.0 is that the version that I got when I purchased the Gazelle for DCS world 2.0.x as that model isn't valid for 1.5 as I understand it that would be a separate purchase and download via Steam?

DCS v2.0 is not available on Steam.

DCS v2.0 is not available on Steam.

No you missed my point, I have the Gazelle in DCS 2.0.x purchased from DCS as I understand it to have a Gazelle mod in DCS 1.5 I need to separately purchase the module through Steam as I understand it as the Gazelle mod I have is not compatible with DCS 1.5. In other words I'm asking is there a difference between the Gazelle mod for DCS 1.5 which I do not have and the Gazelle mod for DCS 2.0.x. which I do have.

The reason I ask is that there seems to be a difference in the way the Gazelle preforms on DCS 2 and NTTR compared to some of the stuff here. :)

No you missed my point, I have the Gazelle in DCS 2.0.x purchased from DCS as I understand it to have a Gazelle mod in DCS 1.5 I need to separately purchase the module through Steam as I understand it as the Gazelle mod I have is not compatible with DCS 1.5. In other words I'm asking is there a difference between the Gazelle mod for DCS 1.5 which I do not have and the Gazelle mod for DCS 2.0.x. which I do have.

 

The reason I ask is that there seems to be a difference in the way the Gazelle preforms on DCS 2 and NTTR compared to some of the stuff here. :)

It's the same module and does not need to be purchased twice. The installer for the module will recognize which version of dcs it is being installed too and will download and install the files appropriate to that version via the module manager.

Okay when you say 2.0 is that the version that I got when I purchased the Gazelle for DCS world 2.0.x as that model isn't valid for 1.5 as I understand it that would be a separate purchase and download via Steam?

No you missed my point, I have the Gazelle in DCS 2.0.x purchased from DCS as I understand it to have a Gazelle mod in DCS 1.5 I need to separately purchase the module through Steam as I understand it as the Gazelle mod I have is not compatible with DCS 1.5. In other words I'm asking is there a difference between the Gazelle mod for DCS 1.5 which I do not have and the Gazelle mod for DCS 2.0.x. which I do have.

 

The reason I ask is that there seems to be a difference in the way the Gazelle preforms on DCS 2 and NTTR compared to some of the stuff here.

You puchased a key for the Gazelle for DCS World. Not a key for 2.0 or 1.5.

The Gazelle is available in both versions on DCS World.

As you bought it off ED's website, you can download the 1.5 and 2.0 version standalones and run both.

You cannot use your ED bought key on Steam.

Personally, I'd use the standalones. You get patches quicker and can have as many versions as you need.

You puchased a key for the Gazelle for DCS World. Not a key for 2.0 or 1.5.

The Gazelle is available in both versions on DCS World.

 

As you bought it off ED's website, you can download the 1.5 and 2.0 version standalones and run both.

You cannot use your ED bought key on Steam.

 

Personally, I'd use the standalones. You get patches quicker and can have as many versions as you need.

Thanks, I'm curious to see if there are differences between versions of DCS world so time permitting will have a look. :thumbup:

It's the same module and does not need to be purchased twice. The installer for the module will recognize which version of dcs it is being installed too and will download and install the files appropriate to that version via the module manager.

Thanks, I will look into that when I have time. :thumbup:

@FragBum it's easy as can be. DCS 1.5 will even copy most of the files automatically from your 2.0 install (and vice versa) and be already validated from the other install as well (does not consume an additional key validation).

Your control settings will not automatically be copied, but you can copy them over.

There are no differences between the "versions".

The AP is just a stability augmentation system so it doesn't change the core flight dynamics, just helps the pilot by dampening responses/ maintaining attitudes.

Even with the AP off (which is mainly how I fly) I do not find the flight model realistic.

HTH

I repeat my words here

Gazelle FM very UFO IMHO. Even if SCAS always on and ballancing helicopter to horizon offcourse through rotor head movement then whole helicopter must at least little moves at roll and pitch

Its if SCAS a super mega fly by wire autopilit system

I repeat my words here

Gazelle FM very UFO IMHO. Even if SCAS always on and ballancing helicopter to horizon offcourse through rotor head movement then whole helicopter must at least little moves at roll and pitch

Its if SCAS a super mega fly by wire autopilit system

Okay this is rather crude but is this the basics of a spin?

http://users.on.net/~rkwmd/DCS/Gazelle_Spin.mp4

Sorry I'm still getting into it. I'm looking for the axis of the Gazelle.

Thanks, I'm curious to see if there are differences between versions of DCS world so time permitting will have a look.

Well, the main difference is Nevada is at 2.000+ feet above ground level.

In addition, if realistic temps are used by the mission designer it mostly is warmer as it is a desert after all.

So the performance in a different environment is definitely different. ;)

Decrypt me please this on page 5&6, paragraphs 13-17 http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/certification-type-certificates-docs-rotorcraft-EASA-TCDS-R.125_Airbus_Helicopters_SA341-01-07012014.pdf I wish to know, where is located the center of gravity of Gazelle.

Decrypt me please this on page 5&6, paragraphs 13-17 http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/certification-type-certificates-docs-rotorcraft-EASA-TCDS-R.125_Airbus_Helicopters_SA341-01-07012014.pdf I wish to know, where is located the center of gravity of Gazelle.

My guess would be: (...)"14. Datum: Longitudinal 3m (9,84 ft) forward of main rotor centreline

Lateral aircraft symmetry plane"(...) EDIT. This would be the "ref" mentioned above, I guess.

that is for an unarmed civil Gazelle S-342J, NOT an SA-342M with Viviane (APX 397) sight or an SA-342L with fixed attached GIAT M621 20mm Cannon and Athena(?) sight.

The modelled version in DCS is a SA-342 M with the APX 397 sight and a SA-342L with slightly altered characteristics, though I am not 100% sure if they changed only some details or remodeled the FM for the L and Mistral Version.

Non, of the Versions in DCS is a civilian SA-342J, so the data won't match anwyway.

It may give a "rough" idea about performance, but it can't be accurate, as additional gear (weight/shifted center of gravity) comes with the sights, cables, TV, batteries and the pylon assemblies for the weapons. The L has a fixed cannon mounted on one side.

With the SA-342 being very lightweight, these additional weights will have a considerable impact.

Decrypt me please this on page 5&6, paragraphs 13-17 http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/certification-type-certificates-docs-rotorcraft-EASA-TCDS-R.125_Airbus_Helicopters_SA341-01-07012014.pdf I wish to know, where is located the center of gravity of Gazelle.

My guess would be: (...)"14. Datum: Longitudinal 3m (9,84 ft) forward of main rotor centreline

Lateral aircraft symmetry plane"(...) EDIT. This would be the "ref" mentioned above, I guess

The datum and CoG limits are shown diagrammatically in the Gazelle Weights and Balances Appendix WB1, page 198 of the SA-341G manual

AFAIK the Gazelle body is effectively a suspended load hanging from the rotating main rotor/masthead. Appendix includes a list of loading options and equipment weights but obviously does not include the Viviane Camera, HOT3, etc.

The datum and CoG limits are shown diagrammatically in the Gazelle Weights and Balances Appendix WB1, page 198 of the SA-341G manual

 

AFAIK the Gazelle body is effectively a suspended load hanging from the rotating main rotor/masthead. Appendix includes a list of loading options and equipment weights but obviously does not include equipment like the Viviane Camera, HOT3, etc.

Looks about right. I would expect the Viviane to change it away from the Cabin Floor and a bit left and to the Front...

Ah ha, I can get into the lateral spin easier now, :music_whistling:

Once you get it on the centre (not sure if CG or centre of model although it feels like it's spinning from just behind the forward seats) the spin kinda sustains itself and you reduce input on cyclic and pedals a tad then you simply step on opposite pedal to stop spinning kinda like getting off an elevator there you are no longer spinning. Can it really do that?

Note it seems the Gazelle can sustain that spin a lot longer then I can.

I see also mention of ground effect or rather lack of it in another thread, that was an early issue I had with the Gazelle. I put it down to small heli vs large heli like there is hardly any ground effect with a 450 but noticeable ground effect with a 600 RC heli.

I've noted the tail does not always follow through on turns it does under some conditions and at other times it just waits for input to correct the attitude. Well it all can't be blamed on the AP etc. I've turned that off to get a feel for the characteristics they bring or don't bring as the case maybe.

I can live with these to a point if they are going to be addressed as the Gazelle for me at least mostly flies very well, however how much of the handling is well not right and how much is spot on is a concern for me.

@shagrat the CG and associated attributes appear to be modelled in as much as the CG changes and the weight changes as you burn fuel, how accurate that is I'm not sure now.

The skating thing you know when you land at just the right (although it might be argued wrong) way, you can skate along the surface. Now that can't be right can it? That's still largely hit and miss for me pun intended.

@Scarecrow seems there are issues mmm, but certainly not the lag and I'm still not sure about the cyclic position aspect in forward flight??

Other than that I still like flying the Gazelle and will await further development from Polychop. :thumbup:

Ramsay, thank you very much. Of course military version is different. I though on military version installed balanced weights or equipment on tail and right side. Any way, its not explain how Gazelle flyes up and down with more than 4G's with asymmetric pylon load, without joystick movements and no any pith and roll.

Ramsay, thank you very much. Of course military version is different. I though on military version installed balanced weights or equipment on tail and right side. Any way, its not explain how Gazelle flyes up and down with more than 4G's with asymmetric pylon load, without joystick movements and no any pith and roll.

Yes this can't be correct it just like getting off an elevator, I once got a blackout effect doing this but the rotor didn't separate. :music_whistling:

Although it's not the thing I would normally do when flying Gazelle.

I was happy for the release of that Gazelle but unfortunately I'm not using it anymore cause there's NO heli flies like that in real world I mean in everything specially the takeoff and landing, turns etc. With my all respect to it's developer and his awesome REALISTIC texture art. I wish they'll work on this issue soon.

BTW, there is a very simple way to more or less disable the Stability Augmentation System: deactivate the Gyro, along with the AP...

It is the reference the SAS uses and without it you should be down to cyclic and rudder as the only controls.

P.S. only to be sure. Everybody is aware the Gazelle module has a setting in the menus special options called "Easier controls" and I guess we all have this switched off, right? I remember me fighting the "Autorudder"/"Take off assist" on the Bf.109 for a couple hours, before I actually looked over the settings in detail...