Check of tail rotor anti ice system shows 3rd and 4th section - ED Forums
 


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Old 03-12-2019, 02:06 PM   #1
DeMonteur
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Default Check of tail rotor anti ice system shows 3rd and 4th section

When I check tail rotor anti ice system, lamps indicating activation of rotor deicing section after completing deicing cycle of 2nd section jumps on 3rd section although tail rotor have only 2 sections and also this lamp should jump back on 1st section.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:39 PM   #2
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When I check tail rotor anti ice system, lamps indicating activation of rotor deicing section after completing deicing cycle of 2nd section jumps on 3rd section although tail rotor have only 2 sections and also this lamp should jump back on 1st section.
Anti ice system: continous working, preventing ice build up. On helos, most often on tail rotor because tge tail eotor is more sensitive to ice( loss of directional control, spinning around -> crasch)

Deice system: system that work in cycles. Let the ice form, then deice. Most often on main rotor, because of heavy power demand. Usually cycles between blades, of pair of blades( opposite, for less unbalance).

Id guess the mi-8 uses the same as above. If so, deice = main rotor, anti ice tail rotor.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:47 PM   #3
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Default Check of tail rotor anti ice system shows 3rd and 4th section

According to your definition have Mi-8 deice system. Although it is used for prevention as well as for deicing. There is 4 cycling sections on each main rotor blade and 2 cycling sections on tail rotor blades. So if I have set knob for tail rotor, section indicator should cycle between 1st and 2nd section. Just try to wait for 3rd section and then turn knob on tail rotor. Section indicator should show 1st section instead of 3rd as it is now.

Last edited by DeMonteur; 03-12-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:13 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DeMonteur View Post
According to your definition have Mi-8 deice system. Although it is used for prevention as well as for deicing. There is 4 cycling sections on each main rotor blade and 2 cycling sections on tail rotor blades. So if I have set knob for tail rotor, section indicator should cycle between 1st and 2nd section. Just try to wait for 3rd section and then turn knob on tail rotor. Section indicator should show 1st section instead of 3rd as it is now.
Ok, didnt read about the mi-8 deice until now.

No, its not rightly understood by you.

I found this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.p...6&d=1447323413

The knob you turn should be just for checking the Amphs on each sub system.
You select which sub system to see the current draw on the meter to the right.

When you put the anti ice system on, it automatically cycles between the heating elements on the blades. You cannot select what to deice by that knob.

Quote:
The cyclic timer controls the energizing sequence of main and tail rotor heating element sections.
Quote:
The heating element of each blade consists of four sections:
• Upper inboard (Section #1)
• Upper outboard (Section #2) • Front (Section #3)
• Lower (Section #4)
• During operation, the cyclic timer energizes each section in order for 38.5±2 seconds. One complete cycle lasts for approximately 154 seconds.
Quote:
Each tail rotor blade contains two heating elements made of stainless steel and running the entire length of the rotor blade.

• During operation, the cyclic timer energizes each section in order for 38.5±2 seconds. Each section is energized twice during each 154 second cycle. The upper element is energized simultaneously with sections 1 and 3 of the main rotor, while the lower element is energized simultaneously with sections 2 and 4 of the main rotor.
So the indication of deice will be for the main rotor blades, but you can understand wich part of the tail blade deicing by looking at the section indication.

All clear ?
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Last edited by Gunnars Driver; 03-12-2019 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:00 AM   #5
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Default Check of tail rotor anti ice system shows 3rd and 4th section

It is perfectly uderstood by me, flight enginieers and lecturers who learnt it this way. Once I personally checked it on real machine because I wasn't sure. That emphasised part talks about internal work of system but not the indication. And indication works the way I explained here. That section lights works according to selection of indication knob setting. So you will go through blades 1-5 of main rotor and it will cycle there through section 1-4. When you set tail rotor, section lights should cycle between section 1 and 2. You simply need explicit check for T/R section deicing to be sure it works correctly.

Last edited by DeMonteur; 03-13-2019 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DeMonteur View Post
It is perfectly uderstood by me,
I didnt check it out in a real mi-8 but in the original manual.

This is the test of MRB:
Quote:
(c) Set the LOAD CURRENT (TOK nOTPE6I11TEJlEVI) selector switch alternately to MAIN ROTOR BLADES 1-2-3-4-5 (JlOnACTII1 HECYll.\. BII1HTA 1-2-3-4-5 and read the ammeter to check the cur- rent drawn by each section of the main rotor blade anti-icing system. The hUmberbfsection Undertestis determined by illumination of the SECTION 1 (1 CEKIlIl15'l), SECTION 2 (2 CEKIlIl15'l), SECTION 3 (3 CEKIlIl15'l), SECTION 4 (4 CEKIlIl15'l) lights. The ammeter reading for each section of the main rotor blade heaters should be within the limits of 60 to 80 A.
This is the test of tail blades:

Quote:
(d) Set the LOAD CURRENT (TOK nOTPE6I11TEJlEVI) selector switch to TAIL ROTOR (XBOCT. BII1HT). The anti-icing system ammeter readings for the tail rotor blades heaters should be within the limits of110 to 150 A.
It doesnt mention the secton check for the tail blades.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:55 AM   #7
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From the DCS Mi-8 manual it indicates that the 4 indicators continue the 4 indicator cycle 1,2,3,4.

From the DCS-M-8 manual.



Quote:
Sections are energized in cycles by cyclic timer ПМК-21. In one cycle, the cyclic timer
activates heating of every section of main and tail rotors for 38.5 sec and cooling of
them for 115.5 sec (main rotor section) and 38.5 sec (tail rotor section). Tail rotor
heating elements sections are energized in the following sequence: the first sections
of tail rotor blades’ heating elements are energized along with the sections I and III
of main rotor blades’ heating elements; the second sections are energized along with
the sections II and IV of main rotor blades’ heating elements.
So according to the above the indicators continue to identify main rotor sections 1,2,3,4 with the timing of the of the tail sections alternating at 38.5 seconds on and off in other words the tail heaters 1 sections correspond with main 1,3 and tail rotor blade heater 2 sections corresponds to main 2,4 respectively.

This means if you select tail rotor current you can identify which heater is energised by which lamp is lite and verify operation by observing the current.

The Mi-17 seems to be much the same except for the duty cycle timings. The indicated currents for the Mi-17 appear to indicate that tail blade heater blade sections 1 are in all parallel as are blade sections 2 hence higher current per heater section for the tail.

AlphaOneSix might be able to clarify that
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Last edited by FragBum; 03-15-2019 at 04:08 AM. Reason: <typo>
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:25 AM   #8
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@Fragbum: yup !
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnars Driver View Post
I didnt check it out in a real mi-8 but in the original manual.

This is the test of MRB:


This is the test of tail blades:



It doesnt mention the secton check for the tail blades.
I see now. So it is not bug. It is feature. Probably too much code for such a small detail.

@FragBum thanks for explanation.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMonteur View Post
I see now. So it is not bug. It is feature. Probably too much code for such a small detail.
Not really the coding for that functionality would have been trivial, at least at the Boolean logic level.

As it would also be at the hardware level with some diode gating at the expense of maybe an extra switch contact but unnecessary.

The implied logic is correct for the annunciator panel as described without adding additional circuitry.

I have no other information between the DCS modelled Mi-8 manual and an Mi-17 manual cica 2007.

Perhaps there may be a more recent update to the annunciator panel logic in question?
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