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Old 09-17-2019, 03:24 PM   #51
mvsgas
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They don't retract automatically, the air force pushes them up.
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Old 09-17-2019, 03:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mvsgas View Post
They don't retract automatically, the air force pushes them up.
I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.

Last edited by bbrz; 09-17-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:13 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvsgas View Post
I do not think neither of this example would be good for the USAF F-16C circa 2007 after CCIP, for conversation sake.

Looking around USAF F-16C block 40/42 after CCIP circa 2011
Lading gear down, atl flaps to extend below 400 knot and IFR door open below 400 knot will maintain Takeoff/landing gains. But keep in mind Flaps extended above 240 will start going up and would be fully retracted by 370 knots. This could incur damage to the flaps, flap Integrated Servo Actuator (ISA) or the flap supports. Also IFR door open or in transition close to or above 400 knot can damage the door hydraulic actuator or mechanism.

Also, using HAF F-16C block 50 circa 2003 DFLCC as an example will give a bad base to start with. HAF DFLCC has different Cat I and Cat III limits and looks for different parameter to limit Roll and Yaw. It has TFR which USAF F-16C block 50 does not have. It uses different computers for different thing. Central Air Data Computer (CADC), the Pneumatic Sensor Assembly (PSA) are different. Not sure if the Modular Mission Computer (MMC) in USAF have additional functionality on the Flight control compared to the HAF F-16 with General Avionics Computer (GAC). I do not know if HAF F-16C on that time period have a CARA which also sends info to the DFLCC.
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Originally Posted by =Panther= View Post
It does exist in the 16CM-1 which covers the 2007 CCIP Block 50.
Thank you for the info.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:20 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.
Not being representative of the USAF block 50 circa 2007 DFLCS, but according to the (quite dated) General Dynamic's control block diagram of Cruise Gains, there's only a transonic schedule for the TEF, which is a function of Qc/Ps.

How later block DFLCS behaves need to be double checked as the -1 description stays true for the transonic flap schedule.
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Last edited by LJQCN101; 10-04-2019 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.
Not having a 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual and not being able to post it even if I did make it a moot point on my end. I remember doing flap inspection before but it could be a case of "oldmanitis" where old people remember thing differently. There is no "Flap relief system" in the F-16, at least non that I work on. The only things connected to the Flaperon are the ISA and the transducer. The only things connected to the ISA are the 4 hydraulic line (pressure and return from both hydraulic systems A and B) and cable to the servo valves. They are also the same ISA used on the Horizontal stabs. The rudder is the only ISA that looks different.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:08 AM   #56
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Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design.

In any case, an interesting item.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design.

In any case, an interesting item.

Yea generally most hydraulic control systems like that have a blow-back feature to prevent structural damage in the even of a gross overspeed...but hey I haven't got a F-16 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual handy right now...
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Rhinozherous View Post
Hello!
I noticed that the connection point for a2a refueling is quite a distance behind the cockpit... It comes to my mind that the boom operator has a lot to do with aiming that thing in.

As I am absolute no a2a expert, I wonder if this circumstance makes refueling the viper in DCS more easy or harder for us?

Thank you
If you have FC3, go up in the F-15C and refuel. It is just a matter of following lines. It might actually be easier for some people than in the hornet (ei. People who can't stop themselves from looking at the probe and basket rather than points on the tanker).
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:38 PM   #59
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In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position.


I want an AAR in DCS that is correctly simulated according to his answer:



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Originally Posted by Sierra99 View Post
To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site.

But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. I have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (In fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDN'T touch the controls...)

That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle...

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

Hope this answers your question.

In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:53 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position.

In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL.
This. I mostly refuel with the basket (Hornet), but I trained a little with the boom yesterday. I can't say that I observed any difference in the behavior of my aircraft with the boom attached or not, which doesn't feel realistic IMO.
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