Why are the most unrealistic servers the most popular?

If you step without organising a lead/wing, a mission objective for the flight and a even minimal gameplan to achieve it, you are missing the basic steps for "realism".

It is not easy to work as a team and therefore it is not the standard on public servers. At the same time working as a team can and is very often highly rewarding.

Building a team of lead/wing is the problem. Squadrons are doing a good job and there are things like r/wingman finder. Multiplayer servers on their own can not really do something about it and the tools ED gives the community are limited.

Like Eddie wrote, it comes down to how people approach their hobby. Are they in the mindset of a person that enjoys a beer in front of TV or are they the person that plays football every Friday at a scheduled event with other players.

I dunno, while the SP on multiplayer experience seems to quite common, both on PVE and PVP servers, there does seem to be plenty of folks that do ad-hoc organize, I routinely hear people checking in on "some" MP servers looking to see what needs to be done. Its not 100% realistic sure, but usually there are a few folks doing it vaguely realisic, maybe 1 guy on CAP for 1 or two strikers, or something like that, or sometimes significantly more.

For alpenwolf, the places I hear this are places that have mandatory SRS. Dunno if you want to go that route on your server, but it might help, or scare people away.

For alpenwolf, the places I hear this are places that have mandatory SRS. Dunno if you want to go that route on your server, but it might help, or scare people away.

SRS definitely scares people away. It's like they're terrified to talk to other human beings. :huh:

Either that or you get the people that join and don't actually say anything at all just to satisfy the requirement of joining the SRS server.:crash:

I think this tendency to not use SRS is because of the larger, much different "other side of the multiplayer world".

In other games we all tend to turn off VOIP / VON functions because of those who only like to either rage or insult over VON. Ofcourse this is not the case in DCS (although the random chat "flame" happens) but in people's head it still does.

My .02

I would like to see some of the popular servers go with a "no fox-3" servers.

SRS definitely scares people away. It's like they're terrified to talk to other human beings. :huh:

Either that or you get the people that join and don't actually say anything at all just to satisfy the requirement of joining the SRS server.:crash:

“Mic Fright” is a real thing that many pilots in real life have to work hard to overcome. I’m sure it’s not different on a server. The big difference is that on a server, the FAA (or a superior officer) won’t be waiting for you if you don’t communicate properly.

I've glanced through comments and I think people here doesn't even get to the point of "realism". I think what a lot see here as "realism" I call just role playing for sake of just reconstruction of specific action which was caused only by desire to reconstruct and wasn't forced on player by war theater situation.

 

I think realism it is not dick measuring of who can take off refuel drop bombs and target whoever and then return and call it real like Maverick said. And it is not about which missile better. Although as Mav pointed out similar aircraft will get player base spread out equally.

 

I think the huge overlook by everyone in this thread is that realism it is logistics, realism it is cost of ammunition and fuel, realism it is PILOT ACTUALLY CARING FOR HIS LIFE!

 

Until those requirements are not met or at least tried to be met, you can measure -stats me all you want and do objectives based on nothing all you want, but it will not yield a result which will get experience closer to things real pilots consider in their sorties and planning (unless you are specifically role playing).

 

 

Balance can be made by game/mission/campaign mechanics I think (don't have red planes? tie things to red SAMs or adjust resources etc.). But what important is to make pilots actually care and that can be done only by punishing them for "unrealistic" behavior like going all guns blazing, just to get those couple "frags". Its an old truth and mechanic used in many games, it is the only way to make people actually care.

 

Blue Flag has implemented lives for instance, the pace of lives restoration is too fast, I just can't possibly spend all my lives before they are getting reset. Hence why should I care?

 

Servers like Blue Flag and DDCS are trying to involve people more into actually planning their actions and base their missions not just on agenda that was written in briefing but on dynamic situation around them. If resources and lives systems will be implemented and properly tuned I think we all will see the difference.

Well said!

There is not frontline in most of the servers. A disaster in realistic speaking. Doesn’t exist a single war without frontline. Now the new fashion is conquer airfields... too bad. How come all the aircraft go so easy through the whole enemy territory without find potential threats until They get close to the wanted enemy airfield. This situation is a classic now days. I was thinking after introducing F-18 servers Admin will make missions with more Sams. The most they do is set a Buk group in the farthest bases and spread some Tors and OSAs around the battlefield in a really mediocre way. Easy job for F-18 and poor realism to get enemy airfield quickest as possible. I really disappointed the way have taken DCS in MP servers. Instead of conquering territories they wanted make airfields the main goal.

I use to open new threads with useful ideas in wish forum but they never hear. They just want save resources to the new western aircraft. Actually is the way this simulator is taken, pro-western aircraft in investments and plan resources. If they make a small move for Eastern aircraft is for showing how hard they are some pointless in flight Physics instead of combat improving experience.

The main unbalanced is originally made from main developers. Is on one side everything and this is becoming boring.

The most they do is set a Buk group in the farthest bases and spread some Tors and OSAs around the battlefield in a really mediocre way. Easy job for F-18 and poor realism to get enemy airfield quickest as possible.

We recognised that this was an issue and upgraded all our missions.

Now most of our target airbases are protected by a full IADS including SA-10, SA-11, SA-15, SA-6, SA-13, SA-8 and SA-16.

Hornet drivers can no longer deliver JDAMs on to SA-11 etc unless the SA-10 is taken out of action.

That sound good. thanks.

Another issue that disappoint really hard is that now days you gonna find less players in Red side than in Blue. This situation is created by the leak of improvements for Redfor aircrafts.

For example, if you set some AI in CAP groups that in certain moment move toward frontline to face the Bluefor. Using AI that refuel automatic they never get last. you will keep this resource in the missions to get activated when the mission start and there are unbalanced one side in numbers. It is really unfair get inside a mission and one side conquered the main part of the territory because the leak of players. This is an issue for The fighter Collection as main investor in this Simulator, not for server admin or mission designer.

Redfor AI: Su-30, Su-24, Su-34

Bluefor AI: F-15E, F-4, Tornado, F-117

You have the tools to create realistic mission with fun until the end of the missions. Also limiting the amount of certain Aircraft in the closest frontline airfield could be something that simulate limitation in resource. There are tons of options.

I personally avoid MP servers that demand SRS.

I have very young kids who are asleep when I fly (or, to put it another way, I can only fly after they are asleep). Me being forced to talk on SRS is going to wake them up.

Why are the most unrealistic servers the most popular? Because 90% of people have no clue what's realistic flying.

;4027124']We recognised that this was an issue and upgraded all our missions.

 

Now most of our target airbases are protected by a full IADS including SA-10, SA-11, SA-15, SA-6, SA-13, SA-8 and SA-16.

 

Hornet drivers can no longer deliver JDAMs on to SA-11 etc unless the SA-10 is taken out of action.

ED needs to improve SAM AI, they are just completely autistic, stay radar on constantly and shoot at the first thing they see way above any kind of effective range. You can place SA-10 together with SA-11, SA_15 and SA-6 etc. but an 8x JSOW volley will still easily take them out.

Another thing is that SAMs like TOR and Tunguska do not engage the JSOW in a coordinated way and do not engage bombs at all. That, and the fact that the russian SAMs are all soviet era pretty much proves that the new GPS guided weapons have no place in DCS currently. Maybe if mission designers started creating incredibly complex SAM networks and behavement scripts. But even then the problem of un-interceptable JDAMs is not solved.

I think it is a disgrace that ED is adding these new western weapons, but not adding the proper equivalents and counters on the russian and chinese side from the same time frame.

an 8x JSOW volley will still easily take them out.

We removed the JSOW from the server so clients have to attack with HARM from low level.

Lol seems most of the DCS community is full of sim dads and care bears

I think I'm actually glad they stick to SP.

When people speak of realism, they usually complain about 1 aspect that bothers them (lack of realistic airframe distribution between coalitions, realistic threats, realistic planning, realistic comms, execution, odds, .... you name it)

So when put together they them selves could not agree what is right level of realism.

Community members that are capable to do everything (i.e. complete package)... willing to spend almost equal time preparing for mission as flying are extremely rare... max. 5% of total community base.

I'm talking that from perspective of person that spent on average 15-20 hours per week making missions and organizing events in last 4 years.

It's always best to do what you want to see happen, wanting things does not really help much and usually there's bunch of things you don't even consider as limiting factor when you just "want".

So from my end, big respect and thanks to people that run 24/7 servers, especially guys from BuddySpike / BlueFlag, but just as well to all other creators that orgnize events within clans.

There's nothing better for community overall, than going out and doing things you want to see happen

Options are very limited is some of the reason why.

1. I'd say quite a few people don't want to spend their allocated free time sitting there refueling. There isn't anything 'realistic' about that imo.

2. Servers don't do a very good job explaining the mission objectives and DCS doesn't help much either with it. ie. it wasn't until 104th added Tacview that I could later get a better sense of the mission. No one in real life just takes off into a complete fog of war. (Kudos to 104th for adding Tacview).

3. Lack of consistent comms. Nearly every server promotes SRS but then you go fly in their war (ie. DDCS) and you find out there are 30 people in Discord comms with no one on SRS. Others promote SRS but then they are all hanging out in Teamspeak. It's really a shame ED hasn't integrated SRS directly into the game to make it more accessible to people. Until servers shut off the alternative comms then people won't bother with SRS.

4. Provide downloadable kneeboards and better briefings, turn off the F10 maps. Another area I think ED could improve on - let server admins provide some server specific kneeboard maps.

That all said there is a positive about some of the servers being more open and available. I think Just Dogfight for example provides a niche environment where it's not about just slinging Fox3's all over the place. Growling Sidewinder's popularity I believe is that it shows many people want to get up and fly and not need to make it more than that - they keep it rather simple.

 

1. I'd say quite a few people don't want to spend their allocated free time sitting there refueling. There isn't anything 'realistic' about that imo.

Nothing wrong with getting most out of your free time.

2. Servers don't do a very good job explaining the mission objectives...

There are servers that don't do great job in that department, but this are usually 24/7 servers ran by a clan that has it open for it's members and public. If there's no public briefing, members have it. So partially "join to get full experience" catch.

However, more often than not, servers that are intended primarily for general DCS public usually have very detailed briefings. People often simply fail to see that briefing within the mission has link to website with full briefing. Even if it does not, usually you'll get result if you google for their web-page.

Growling Sidewinder's popularity I believe is that it shows many people want to get up and fly and not need to make it more than that - they keep it rather simple.

There's nothing wrong with keeping it simple, just like it's not a problem when you have a group of people that want and go full hardcore nerd it out. :D

It's that middle ground that becomes an "issue" of threads like this. And there's no sweet spot, as there's no one homogeneous group in the middle.

So taking into account that all servers are ran by enthusiast, that take their free time to do it, it's kinda difficult for me to understand questions like this thread has, which come from certain position of entitlement, i.e. "I want...".

While what is required is to understand that it would benefit community in general if you simply go and do it and offer it to public, especially if you're not one that can keep it simple, but you're also not quite one that will go full hardcore and nerd it out... i.e. you're somewhere in the middle, but can't find your sweet spot in current offer.

Bottom line, community expands offer and things get learned. :D

While you can't expect so much realism in Public MP, as "realistic" mission would take vastly high amount of time for planning preparation and team work, not possible in public MP, I would expect people to focus more on objectives rather than personal score. I believe an option for server admin to disable personal score and add points to all members of a team who achieved the objectives would help.

This can also be further improved by limiting resources for missiles, fuel etc.

For example, you earn points by achieving mission objectives, with the points you can "buy" a few more amraams and so on(How Counter strike worked). Not sure if such would work well, but implemented properly, would help for a good balance between realism and possible in public. I'd imagine servers as BF or Cold War can benefit.

More and better SAMs and Ground action is needed too. Now it doesn't seem that it poses too much challenge to clean up a whole base from the ground units.

People have fun in different ways. Some enjoy super high milsim stuff with long flights just as in real life. Others just want to hop in a server with their limited time and blow stuff up. Then there is everything else in between.

As zhukov stated, a realistic mission is faaaaaar away from just "red type of aircrafts vs blue type of aircrafts". And some MP servers actually have this. On DDCS you will never see F-18 vs F-18 situation, unless it's a blue-on-blue.

Realistic mission would require that all people who want to join the mission MUST go through briefing with ground commander who will assign them tasks. Also, jumping in on random time would be disabled, you would be able to jump into the server every for ex 45 minutes. If you miss it, you don't jump in.

But for this you need people who have high enough knowledge and communication skill to actually participate.

You can get this thing only if you are a member of a squadron that does things realistically.

Doing this sort of thing in MP is impossible because the DCS MP "Select role" has NO option of providing you with detailed SA and briefing before picking your aircraft which leads the game to a whole another culture and set of mind.

If you don't understand me, compare joining to MP server in BMS and in DCS.

In DCS all you see is "RED" and "BLUE" aircrafts. Nothing else. No map, no briefing. 1st you pick your aircraft, then you can check the briefing.

On BMS the 1st thing you see is the map and the situation, then you check the needed taskings and after that you pick your aircraft.

So yea, DCS MP isn't made to be realistic, unless the guy forces it in ME. But still, he can't do nothing more than putting certain type of aircrafts.

There will never be realistic servers in public MP unless ED completely changes their "Select role" page and overall approach to MP

Edit: I'm not favorizing BMS, just trying to prove the point. I lead a squadron and we actually do missions with a realistic approach (detailed briefings, map is full and there is always more than 2000 ground units, AI and Client CAP fighters are doing CAP, AI interceptors rise when you enter certain zone, you have AWACS and tankers, drones, JTACs, you have factories that produce certain number of certain airframes every X hours so every time you lose an aircraft, you actually lose it and if you lose a factory, you lost supply etc.......), but it took me several months just to build the starting template with all triggers. And then, with some updates, it just doesn't work because ED made something and now it's broken. So making realistic mission, just from Mission Editor, takes a lot of hours. And I really mean a lot. But that's just the 1st step. Now you have to find someone who will actually be able to participate in realistic missions. That guy has to know all the comms, all the ordinance types, his aircraft systems, all formations, he has to be disciplined enough not to rush on 1st bandit he sees etc...

"Hey let's have realistic mission" is an easy thing to say, but in reality very hard to achieve.

Realism is chaos or a bore fest

Even in reality, war is chaos. Not organised perfectionism and elitism.

In the 2nd "Gulf War", the first strikes on Iraq, if you read about it, were a mess. Some planes couldn't refuel, some returned for technical problems, Mig-29s and 21s jumped them on Egress, etc.,.

I think bombs on target in the war = 40% or something like this. A10Cs and Harriers did a lot of missions in CAS role...so you need a ground battle raging with JTAC etc.,. F14s flew around in circles on patrol for 12 hours with no action.

Helis did medivac etc risking being shot down, Apache flew missions (which we don't have).

So even "realism" can't be that real if you want a real war scenario in DCS atm. It's just mindless condemning by people who think they are somehow better than everyone else.

Realism = help your buddies, compete against yourself, the plan works until the enemy show up, pilots having different levels of experience and skill, Murphy's Law, etc, etc.,.

From a military flight instructor, "We don't expect pilots to be perfect, but know what perfect is."

Because this is a video game. That simple.

If you want "realistic" servers and missions, feel free to make those.

PvP has to be balanced, scenarios like "Me and my tomcat buddy fox 3 some export migs21 coming right at us because according to wikipedia the tomcat shot down...."

Are only fun if you are the tomcat. I dont even get why people can just assume that people would be willing to spend their time entertaining them.

You need some kind of balance on your pvp server to make it fun for everyone instead of a one sided slugfest. There is nothing wrong with that, because DCS is a sandbox videogame.

If people want to roleplay as pilots that is totally fine.

If people just want to fly arround and blow shit up that is totally fine.

If people want to go the powergaming competetive route that is totally fine.

It just gets kinda, lets say wired when one group starts pointing fingers, because their playstyle, their way of enjoying DCS just is the only real way to play and enjoy the game and everyone else is just doing it wrong and has to be convinced to change their way. By force.

"But somewhere it says study level simulation, how dare you to call it a videogame, I am 55 years old I cant be a gamer, I do simulations" :megalol:

If you want to fly some realistic MP, you just don't jump on public servers, you are joining a squad.

If you want to fly some realistic MP, you just don't jump on public servers, you are joining a squad.

Yup what BaD CrC says.