Will there ever be a SA342sim? - Page 11 - ED Forums
 


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Old 08-21-2019, 06:16 AM   #101
River
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I too have the feeling the control input should be more 1:1, somehow the cyclic in the cockpit is a little weird. FFB is already unchecked.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:01 AM   #102
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This thread is actually quite depressing to me, because as a real life (for fun) heli pilot, with just under 200 hours in trainer and single turbine ships (S300/R22/R44/MD500/Bell 406) -- I have had loads of fun in the Gazelle. It feels more realistic than anything I've flown in FSX or XPlane (and I have a lot of hours in the FSX 206, as annoying as it is flight model-wise). I haven't flown a single combat mission with the Gazelle; I just like messing around and landing on the nearest parking lot as I cruise around.


So now I learn that it's not realistic. <Sigh> I have the UH-1 and the Mi-8 and I don't enjoy flying them that much. The Gazelle just feels right to me. Maybe I'm not as discerning as I should be, and I don't spend any time exploring the corners of the flight envelope, but -- it's FUN to fly and scratches my flying itch (I don't fly much IRL due to various reasons, the biggest one being $).


So, I'll just wait for that new, more realistic FM that PolyChop promises... That will be interesting.


(Edit: I meant to mention that I'm using a Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 base along with a TM Warthog grip and 100mm extension, with the centerless cam and very light pre-loading set. I think that makes a lot of difference in the way flying "feels".)


Last edited by blave; 08-26-2019 at 04:44 PM. Reason: adding a detail
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:16 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. One is good for training, the other caused a ''Coming to Jesus'' moment.
Based on my RL vs Simulated experience, I sort of disagree with you. While it is true that your type of joystick makes a big difference in how you can control the aircraft, you can definitely still notice if a flight model has been done right or not.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:28 AM   #104
Alec Delorean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blave View Post
This thread is actually quite depressing to me, because as a real life (for fun) heli pilot, with just under 200 hours in trainer and single turbine ships (S300/R22/R44/MD500/Bell 406) -- I have had loads of fun in the Gazelle. It feels more realistic than anything I've flown in FSX or XPlane (and I have a lot of hours in the FSX 206, as annoying as it is flight model-wise). I haven't flown a single combat mission with the Gazelle; I just like messing around and landing on the nearest parking lot as I cruise around.


So now I learn that it's not realistic. <Sigh> I have the UH-1 and the Mi-8 and I don't enjoy flying them that much. The Gazelle just feels right to me. Maybe I'm not as discerning as I should be, and I don't spend any time exploring the corners of the flight envelope, but -- it's FUN to fly and scratches my flying itch (I don't fly much IRL due to various reasons, the biggest one being $).


So, I'll just wait for that new, more realistic FM that PolyChop promises... That will be interesting.


(Edit: I meant to mention that I'm using a Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 base along with a TM Warthog grip and 100mm extension, with the centerless cam and very light pre-loading set. I think that makes a lot of difference in the way flying "feels".)

I find it quite depressing that a "real life" heli pilot isn't aware of DCS's excellent implementation of realistic force trim feature for the helicopter modules. With a spring centering stick (which should be a very annoying input method for a real life heli pilot) you have to use those workaround methods (stick to center after trim), which isn't the most natural way of flying a heli. Someone who has no clue about the realistic trim feature might it find difficult to fly the Mi-8, UH-1 and Ka-50. However, there are springless joystick mods out there and FFB joysticks which work absolutely fabulous with the realistic trim feature. It makes flying the helicopters in DCS the most realistic experience for a game on PC. The Gazelle module doesn't even feature any of those trim methods and in addition, their magnetic brake implementation is a joke. This, the weird input sensitivity overdrive after startup and the incomplete FM make the Gazelle a low quality module in comparison to the other helicopters in DCS. It's like Arcade Mode always enabled, like flying a helo in Arma and other games with 'normal' joysticks.


Examples for a simple joystick mod with 'hold stick in place' feature: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50522
Another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3I0WS9vWI

Last edited by Alec Delorean; 08-29-2019 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:12 PM   #105
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Ok, so for the record, do we have any real reason to believe Polychop still intends to re-work the flight model?


The last message I saw from them walked back from admitting it even needed work.


What happened to the French pilot who came on here and was going to work with them?


I've had fun with the Gaz recently, but all this still stands...


https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=181563

Last edited by Scarecrow84; 08-29-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:16 PM   #106
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@Scarecrow84

You will know as soon as a big update comes out, where all of those who tinkered the axis saturation down to hell can safely set everything back to 100% to get 1:1 deflection for the cyclic:

- ingame cyclic 1:1 deflection on joystick input and before startup deflection equal to after startup deflection
- in special settings you will find the same trim options like in the other helicopter modules
- the magnetic brake will actually work (press and hold - disengage, release - engage, full FFB support...).
- no more weird continuous roll on cyclic input
- tbc



Everything just a dream for years now. But all this is needed to make it a full-quality DCS module.

Last edited by Alec Delorean; 08-29-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:54 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damcopter View Post
I have 154hours of real flight in the Gazelle and 3000h + in other helicopters.
I am helicopter instructor since 15 years on French helicopters.

The DCS Gazelle has big problems considering FM.

First of all:
A steady cyclic displacement on the right or the left side doesn't correspond to a roll angle of X degrees like it is IRL. In DCS the Gazelle never stop rolling until fly on the back... IRL if you displace the cyclic x cm on the right, you will have a x degrees roll angle (it's a little bit simplified but too hard to explain in English for me)
Just compare the MI8 and the Gazelle in DCS. Fly both at 120km/h (or the speed you want) and displace your stick 3cm on the right or left and maintain it. Just look at the behavior of your helicopter ������. The MI8 is realistic, the Gazelle is....

I agree with comments on the VRS in DCS. If it was like that in real life I wouldn't be able to write a comment on Ed's forum: I would be dead.

Sorry for my English.
There are some other weird things on the FM of the DCS Gazelle. I explained all of them to Polychop guys. They are working on it.... Or they are working on the next chopper and maybe... Maybe one day they will work again on the Gazelle.

I am angry because Polychop never made a statement on the problem of their FM. They know all the mistakes they've done thanks to real pilots feedbacks but they don't speak about it and still earn money based on a lie.

Some guys tell that ALAT pilots were happy with the FM when testing the Gazelle on DCS.
It's normal because when you test a Sim for the first time when you are also a real pilot, you miss the real sensation of flight that you are used to. And you pilot the Sim in response to the instant behavior of the module. I made the same mistake during the first 2 hours of flight with the Gazelle. I was like a child when I saw the cockpit for the first time, it was like 15 years ago when I learnt to fly in ALAT school at Dax. But passing the first 2 hours trying to apply curves on axes to have a realistic feeling, I never succeeded to reach a realistic FM. Then I searched for the mistakes and I have discovered some.
After that I performed a test flight with Polychop guys and now we are waiting for the new FM. Perhaps one day. Fingers crossed.
Finally, someone who can speak about the problems I wrote a long time ago. I only flew AS365 and AS350 in real life (plus training in R22, R44 and some Ka-32), can't speak about the Gaz, but sure doesn't feel like a helicopter.

Mi-8 and Huey feel more like a helicopter. Although as you said... VRS like that and we would all be dead. Huey also feels... mmm... how can I say it... elastic in the FM. For me, the best FM to describe a helicopter in DCS would be Mi-8, and Ka-50, because I flew a Ka-32 and feels a lot like it.

But Gaz, definitely does not fly as a helicopter. I flown the AS350 B2 and B3, they are a bit heavier than the Gaz and doesn't have all the SAS/aids that the military Gaz have, but... helicopter physics are helicopter physics. Extremely complex at the macro level but understandable if you break it down.

As Jester986 said... a PC sim is what it is... even in the multi-million sims that we train, it is not the same thing.

But... I reinforce, the Gaz have big flaws. I've always defended that.

Good to know, that they are assuming that there is a problem, and they are going to work to fix it. Finally!
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:53 AM   #108
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You don't have to be snarky about it. I have very little turbine time, and most of my time is in piston ships that don't have force trim (vs. just "trim").


That said, I'm here to say that I'm modifying my position about the SA-342. I've spent more time in the Gazelle and in the UH-1 (and to a lesser degree, in the Mi- since I first posted here, and I am starting to "get" why some folks are less than impressed with the Gazelle flight model. I now realize that it flies the way I *want* it to, not necessarily the way it really does . I am now more anxiously awaiting an improved flight model, and will wring out the Huey some more.


In my defense, I spent many many hours in FSX's helicopter model over several years, wishing it didn't suck, and even the Gazelle feels 10x better than that sorry thing, so maybe that's why I was so enamoured with the Gazelle for a while.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Delorean View Post
I find it quite depressing that a "real life" heli pilot isn't aware of DCS's excellent implementation of realistic force trim feature for the helicopter modules. With a spring centering stick (which should be a very annoying input method for a real life heli pilot) you have to use those workaround methods (stick to center after trim), which isn't the most natural way of flying a heli. Someone who has no clue about the realistic trim feature might it find difficult to fly the Mi-8, UH-1 and Ka-50. However, there are springless joystick mods out there and FFB joysticks which work absolutely fabulous with the realistic trim feature. It makes flying the helicopters in DCS the most realistic experience for a game on PC. The Gazelle module doesn't even feature any of those trim methods and in addition, their magnetic brake implementation is a joke. This, the weird input sensitivity overdrive after startup and the incomplete FM make the Gazelle a low quality module in comparison to the other helicopters in DCS. It's like Arcade Mode always enabled, like flying a helo in Arma and other games with 'normal' joysticks.


Examples for a simple joystick mod with 'hold stick in place' feature: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50522
Another one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3I0WS9vWI
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:43 AM   #109
Alec Delorean
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When people are less impressed with the FM, they also mean the input and how differently it works compared to helicopters in DCS. It maybe better to separate them, because both are the biggest issues in the module. How the input system fails might be a bigger problem for most people than how accurate the simulated flight model is. Right now steering the gazelle works better with keyboard or the d-pad on a gamepad than with a HOTAS, which is my biggest complain since release. It's implementation is extremely bad and far below the standard of controls in DCS's other aircraft.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:12 AM   #110
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https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comm...chops_gazelle/
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