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TPOD: ATRK vs. PTRK


fitness88

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From Chuck's Guide p.207:

Press the Sensor Control Switch Towards Selected Display

(Right if our right DDI is selected) to toggle between Point

Track (PTRK, tracks a moving object like a high-contrast

vehicle) and Area Track (ATRK, used for a static target).

 

So this is incorrect?

 

It's not incorrect, but it's far more complex and nuanced than that.

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I haven't played enough with the PWIIs in DCS to see how it replicates hitting movers. It could be that PTRK works fine, but is unrealistic.

I've never had a problem hitting a moving target in DCS with a GBU-12 using PTRK, interesting to hear that it's not the simple in real life! So, IRL you need to get good at manually leading a moving target with the slew stick? That sounds like fun ...

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I've never had a problem hitting a moving target in DCS with a GBU-12 using PTRK, interesting to hear that it's not the simple in real life! So, IRL you need to get good at manually leading a moving target with the slew stick? That sounds like fun ...

 

Yep. Hitting movers with a GBU-12 is as much art as science. It sounds like DCS doesn't model the PWII characteristics all that well. What were the TGT speeds out of curiosity?

 

Edit to add: Attacking Movers were one of the primary reasons why the GBU-54 was developed because the GBU-12s were so difficult and limited.

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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That's a common understanding but it not exactly correct. There is a lot more to it that.

 

ATRK is typically used for larger less defined targets like the roof of a building, or a runway or a bridge abutment. However, it can certainly be used very effectively on small discrete targets such as a vehicle.

 

PTRK is usually only used on small targets that offer very good contrast with sharp edges so that the PTRK tracking gate can "grab on" and hold on to it. If the target is too large or too undefined, the PTRK gate will often move around - latching first onto the turret of a tank or the hot hood of a car or truck. But it can also easily lose the track altogether if the target aspect changes and the PTRK can't see that spot anymore or the contrast changes. PTRK IRL often has a mind of its own - moving around the target when you least want it to.

 

As a general rule of thumb (ROT) for employing LGBs, For a static target it's usually best to always use an ATRK as its often more stable than PTRK. Even on non-moving vehicles. For movers, if you're simply tracking them and not bombing them yet - PTRK will allow you to do it mostly hands free as it will latch onto the vehicle and stay there (you hope). However, whether to use ATRK or PTRK is often personal preference and is driven by the target features itself.

 

Moving targets are more complex than just building a PTRK and dropping the LGB. For PWII bombs (GBU-10 and 12), you need to lead them with the crosshair. IRL, if you have a PTRK on the vehicle, the bomb will miss unless it's barely crawling along. Anything over about 10mph and you need to lead the truck/car/tank whatever by some amount for the entire time of flight. So PTRK won't work at all. If its a GBU-24 or GBU-54 (future maybe), then PTRK is the way to go. I haven't played enough with the PWIIs in DCS to see how it replicates hitting movers. It could be that PTRK works fine, but is unrealistic.

 

Finally, you need to understand that there is a huge difference between LGB and GPS weapon employment, and from your follow on questions - I'm not sure you get that difference. LGB weapons need the laser on the target for at least the last 8-10 sec before impact. Without the laser spot, they will likely miss. However for a GPS weapon (JDAM, JSOW, etc) the laser is not required at all. Hell, the TGP is not even required. You can type in coordinates only in the UFC and let 'er rip. The TGP w/ laser, as others have said, can quickly send those TGT coords to the bomb without you having to fat finger them in. The laser is not required, but using it during the designation gives you much more precise coordinates than without the laser. However, once you release the GPS bombs, they cannot see the laser or targeting pod AT ALL. So what you do with a track after release is totally irrelevant. You can boresight the pod and the bombs won't care.

 

Thanks Notso for that detailed explanation and info!

Yes I do understand GPS vs. Laser targeting, I got tripped up on understanding the difference between the TPOD tracking a tgt and actually being able to effectively release a GPS weapon on that moving tgt...thanks to everyone I now do!

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Any tips on improving accuracy using the TPOD/JSOW I sometimes miss by feet?

I zoom in all the way, I take it zooming in all the way in narr and zoom would improve accuracy?

 

Zooming in will help you place the crosshair on the target you wish the designate more accurately, and firing the laser will also help get more accurate coordinates.

 

Still, the weapons are not perfect. GPS guided weapons like JDAM and JSOW are generally specified to be accurate to within 13 meters. In practice it's more than twice that accurate, but they're still not pinpoint weapons. If you need a bomb to be accurate to within feet, you should be using a laser guided weapon.

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Zooming in will help you place the crosshair on the target you wish the designate more accurately, and firing the laser will also help get more accurate coordinates.

 

Still, the weapons are not perfect. GPS guided weapons like JDAM and JSOW are generally specified to be accurate to within 13 meters. In practice it's more than twice that accurate, but they're still not pinpoint weapons. If you need a bomb to be accurate to within feet, you should be using a laser guided weapon.

 

As I was falling asleep thinking about this it dawned on me:doh:

It was pointed out in previous posts that the actual co-ordinates are ground co-ords and do not end on the tgt/building but actually pass through the building on angle toward the ground where you are pointing with the TPOD. If when targeting the TPOD you are not square to the building and you do not release immediately the tgt will no longer be in the direct line of sight to the ground co-ords. It improves accuracy if you're releasing from square on and lower toward the ground of the tgt.


Edited by fitness88
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As I was falling asleep thinking about this it dawned on me:doh:

It was pointed out in previous posts that the actual co-ordinates are ground co-ords and do not end on the tgt/building but actually pass through the building on angle toward the ground where you are pointing with the TPOD. If when targeting the TPOD you are not square to the building and you do not release immediately the tgt will no longer be in the direct line of sight to the ground co-ords. It improves accuracy if you're releasing from square on and lower toward the ground of the tgt.

 

This is one of the reasons why you should fire the laser to get the most accurate coordinates.

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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This is one of the reasons why you should fire the laser to get the most accurate coordinates.

 

Yes I understand but then with the laser you need to hold relative course till impact, using only GPS it's fire-and-forget.

 

I must say technique is very important. Accuracy has now gone up to 10/10 [releasing 2 stations] so long as you tgt closer to the ground, release IN RNG and try and be as nose on tgt for the designating/release as is practical for the strike:thumbup:


Edited by fitness88
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Yes I understand but then with the laser you need to hold relative course till impact, using only GPS it's fire-and-forget.

 

 

Sigh, you're misunderstanding. I'll try to explain later after dinner. :)

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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Sigh, you're misunderstanding. I'll try to explain later after dinner. :)

 

Yes I understand but then with the laser you need to hold relative course till impact, using only GPS it's fire-and-forget.

 

I must say technique is very important. Accuracy has now gone up to 10/10 [releasing 2 stations] so long as you tgt closer to the ground, release IN RNG and try and be as nose on tgt for the designating/release as is practical for the strike:thumbup:

 

Ok, ignore Laser guided BOMBS completely for a minute. We are talking about using the laser to generate accurate coordinates to send a solution to GPS weapons like a JDAM or JSOW. The TGP generates coordinates essentially by using trigonometry. The jet theoretically knows where it is in space and it then uses the angle measurements of the target pod to generate where the crosshairs are looking on the ground. You are correct that if you are holding the crosshair on something like the roof of a 5 story building, the bombing computer will not know the building is there and instead draw a straight line beyond it to the ground well past the building. The bomb will likely miss because the jet is drawing a triangle to the wrong point. This is where the laser comes in. By firing the laser at the roof of the building, it is giving the computer the correct slant range to the TGT (i.e. the hypotenuse of the triangle). There is a bit more involved than that, but that's the basic principle. That's why firing the laser when generating coordinates or making a designation - completely aside from using it for terminal guidance - is critical to getting the most accurate designation possible. Even if you were dropping dumb Mk-84s and you had a TGP - you should always shoot the laser to designate your target to get the most accurate spot for the jet to calculate the release parameters.

 

Again though, I have no idea if DCS models this correctly or not.

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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Sigh, you're misunderstanding. I'll try to explain later after dinner. :)

 

From my other readings I had it in my head that lasing was only for laser guided weapons but after re-reading your post...I'll find the procedure for using the laser to set JSOW co-ords and see how it goes...thanks!

Hope you enjoyed your dinner:thumbup:


Edited by fitness88
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Just to follow up on Notso's excellent explanation with a bit of rudimentary info in case you need it: while the TGP's laser is primarily used as a target illumination laser for laser guided weapons, it also functions as a laser range finder. When attacking a target using weapons that are not laser guided, firing the laser briefly before designating the target results in a much more accurately described designation point, as the range to the designation point is then very accurately known. If you do not fire the laser, then the Hornet will use the angle the pod is currently pointing and the radar altimeter to make a guess. Measuring the distance with the laser will always be more accurate than guessing.

 

Again though, I have no idea if DCS models this correctly or not.

I know it is modeled with the A-10C. I'm unsure of it is in the Hornet yet.

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Just to follow up on Notso's excellent explanation with a bit of rudimentary info in case you need it: while the TGP's laser is primarily used as a target illumination laser for laser guided weapons, it also functions as a laser range finder. When attacking a target using weapons that are not laser guided, firing the laser briefly before designating the target results in a much more accurately described designation point, as the range to the designation point is then very accurately known. If you do not fire the laser, then the Hornet will use the angle the pod is currently pointing and the radar altimeter to make a guess. Measuring the distance with the laser will always be more accurate than guessing.

 

 

I know it is modeled with the A-10C. I'm unsure of it is in the Hornet yet.

 

When you say fire laser briefly, is that 1or2 seconds?

 

 

Also can you please tell me if this is accurate, as it works perfectly without transferring to PP:

"A neat feature of the targeting pod is that you can designate

targets with it even without a laser. The laser is used for laser-

guided weapons, so the GPS-guided units only need valid

coordinates. These coordinates can be obtained by designating a

target with the targeting pod while the JDAM/JSOW is in TOO

(Target of Opportunity) Mode. The coordinates are then

memorized, and simply switching to PP (Pre-Planned) mode will

automatically transfer these coordinates to the selected"

JDAM/JSOW.

This was from Chuck's manual p.199.


Edited by fitness88
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Funny I should stumble upon this thread today of all todays, since yesterday I was reading the excellent book "Black Aces High" that describes exactly this procedure used by RIOs in the F-14A equipped with LANTIRN pods to find the range to target.

 

I had no idea the Litening's Laser also functioned as a range finder and that it augmented accuracy. I'll adopt this from now on. Excellent explanations. Thank you guys.

 

If only we knew whether this is simulated or not.

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Funny I should stumble upon this thread today of all todays, since yesterday I was reading the excellent book "Black Aces High" that describes exactly this procedure used by RIOs in the F-14A equipped with LANTIRN pods to find the range to target.

 

I had no idea the Litening's Laser also functioned as a range finder and that it augmented accuracy. I'll adopt this from now on. Excellent explanations. Thank you guys.

 

If only we knew whether this is simulated or not.

 

I think a good way to verify if it's modelled is by aiming at rooftops on high buildings. In my experience this has quite often resulted in the trajectory of the JSOW looping over the roof and landing beyond the building to the ground GPS co-ords.

As Notso wrote:"The bomb will likely miss because the jet is drawing a triangle to the wrong point. This is where the laser comes in. By firing the laser at the roof of the building, it is giving the computer the correct slant range to the TGT (i.e. the hypotenuse of the triangle)."

 

If you lase, and you hit the rooftop consistently then I would presume it's modelled.


Edited by fitness88
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The coordinates are then

memorized, and simply switching to PP (Pre-Planned) mode will

automatically transfer these coordinates to the selected"

JDAM/JSOW.

 

 

So I guess the purpose of switching the weapon to PP mode is to prevent the TPOD from over-writing the coordinates in the case of a second, inadvertent, designation??

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So I guess the purpose of switching the weapon to PP mode is to prevent the TPOD from over-writing the coordinates in the case of a second, inadvertent, designation??

 

I don't think so, I simply press un-designate to do that. This was from Chuck's manual p.199.

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Sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute, but I have a question that is pertinent to this topic and I don't want to pollute the forums.

 

It seems that I can only switch from area track to point track in the right DDI by pressing my right sensor select control switch after the right DDI has been made the sensor of interest.

 

If I put the FLIR display on the MPCD and I make that the SOI, I cannot switch from area to point track by clicking down on the sensor select control switch. Can anyone reproduce this?

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Sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute, but I have a question that is pertinent to this topic and I don't want to pollute the forums.

 

It seems that I can only switch from area track to point track in the right DDI by pressing my right sensor select control switch after the right DDI has been made the sensor of interest.

 

If I put the FLIR display on the MPCD and I make that the SOI, I cannot switch from area to point track by clicking down on the sensor select control switch. Can anyone reproduce this?

 

I confirm it works. Make certain you are airborne, have potential tgts on FLIR.

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I confirm it works. Make certain you are airborne, have potential tgts on FLIR.

 

Thanks, will give it a go. Perhaps I didn't have enough of a contrast between what I was targeting and the rest of the environment and that's why it couldn't enter point track. Concidentally it could've happened the first time I was placing the flir on the MPCD and that's why I got confused. I will report back my findings. Thanks again

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When you say fire laser briefly, is that 1or2 seconds?

The range calculation will happen almost instantly, no need to lase for more than a second. I typically make sure the laser is actively firing when I designate the target, so that the range info is as up to date as possible.

 

 

Also can you please tell me if this is accurate, as it works perfectly without transferring to PP:

The behavior of PP vs TOO with the FLIR has been changing with recent updates, and is not yet complete. You can reference this thread for a lot more info: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258579

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It seems that I can only switch from area track to point track in the right DDI by pressing my right sensor select control switch after the right DDI has been made the sensor of interest.

 

If I put the FLIR display on the MPCD and I make that the SOI, I cannot switch from area to point track by clicking down on the sensor select control switch. Can anyone reproduce this?

 

SCS in the direction of the FLIR page will toggle point and area track, but the box will not be drawn in the middle unless the FLIR has a valid point track. No box could mean the FLIR is in point track but without a valid contrast lock.

 

Also, I believe that the FLIR on the MPCD is a WIP thing that isn't actually possible on the real jet. My understanding from another post is that the FLIR can only be assigned to the left or right DDI, and that the page should not be available on the MPCD.

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SCS in the direction of the FLIR page will toggle point and area track, but the box will not be drawn in the middle unless the FLIR has a valid point track. No box could mean the FLIR is in point track but without a valid contrast lock.

 

Also, I believe that the FLIR on the MPCD is a WIP thing that isn't actually possible on the real jet. My understanding from another post is that the FLIR can only be assigned to the left or right DDI, and that the page should not be available on the MPCD.

 

It works on the ampcd fine, you need a tgt with at least a bit of contrast, as opposed to testing an area of empty water in the middle of the ocean.

 

Thanks for your answer to my lase timing question.

Also maybe I misunderstood what Chuck wrote just seemed weird having to transfer from TOO to PP as it works fine in TOO once acquired but as you mentioned it's a WIP.

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