Heat signature

After exploring the issue in this thread, it was suggested to open an issue here as well.

The heat signature of the Mirage does not seem to be correct, resulting in the sidewinder family (at least) acquiring tone far later and closer than it should. You can see in the supplied track a M2k and Mig-15 closing in a head on aspect. The Mirage is in afterburner. Both targets give tone at 3.5nm.

Track file: https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=192154&d=1534412624

edit:https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218285&page=4

Looks like two separate bugs.

#1 - AI piloted Mirage may be too fast without afterburner. 770knots TAS without burner. This gives the discrepancy between different observations.

#2 - M2000-5 locks and gives tone at 11nm. M2000C at 6nm. One or the other is incorrect, as they share airframe and engine.

You don't think the problem comes from the other side instead?

15 Nm for a head on tone looks weird.

No. Flatly. An afterburning engine in a plane breaking the sound barrier should produce a larger heat signature than a smaller non-afterburning engine in a subsonic cruise. Right now, they are equal.

Justify it if you wish, but thats a bug.

No. Flatly. An afterburning engine in a plane breaking the sound barrier should produce a larger heat signature than a smaller non-afterburning engine in a subsonic cruise. Right now, they are equal.

 

Justify it if you wish, but thats a bug.

Did you try to measure if there is a difference:

- on the Mirage with or without afterburner ?

- other fighter with afterburner ?

Maybe it's the module, maybe it's DCS...

You don't think the problem comes from the other side instead?

 

15 Nm for a head on tone looks weird.

You're aware the maximum speed warning in the Mirage warns the pilot about thermal stress on the airframe, not actually mechanical stress?

That alone should tell you by how much a supersonic plane's frontal area heats up once it reaches a certain speed.

You're aware the maximum speed warning in the Mirage warns the pilot about thermal stress on the airframe, not actually mechanical stress?

 

That alone should tell you by how much a supersonic plane's frontal area heats up once it reaches a certain speed.

153°C, far from exhaust temperature :music_whistling:

But for the record it also turns on:

- above 750kt gear up

- above 265kt gear down

- above M0.95 SLATS out

- above M1.4 scoops out

Did you try to measure if there is a difference:

- on the Mirage with or without afterburner ?

- other fighter with afterburner ?

 

 

Maybe it's the module, maybe it's DCS...

Heres another. AI set to passive defend (flares, but no manuver). Mirage at same, short 3.2-3.5nm range regardless of 250 knots or 750 knots. SU-27 locks at 18nm. MIG-15 locks at 3.2-3.5 All with AIM-9M.

REHEAT adds no heat?

sidewinder3.trk

So now the Su-27 is locked from 18Nm instead of 15Nm ?

I'm not sure DCS takes into account fuselage impact temperature.

Head on wouldn't be the best aspect to pick up engine/ exhaust heat.

IRL, even with AIM-9M/ Magic 2, the pure head on aspect (180 degrees) isn't the best to lock on.

I would suggest to offset at least to 150.

I'm pretty sure DCS makes a difference between twin engine and single engine.

As single engine, the closest thing to Mirage 2000 would be AI F-16.

So now the Su-27 is locked from 18Nm instead of 15Nm ?

 

I'm not sure DCS takes into account fuselage impact temperature.

Head on wouldn't be the best aspect to pick up engine/ exhaust heat.

IRL, even with AIM-9M/ Magic 2, the pure head on aspect (180 degrees) isn't the best to lock on.

I would suggest to offset at least to 150.

 

I'm pretty sure DCS makes a difference between twin engine and single engine.

As single engine, the closest thing to Mirage 2000 would be AI F-16.

F-16C no afterburn - 3nm

F-16C in afterburn - 12nm

F-15C no afterburn -4nm

F-15C in afterburn - 15nm

Mirage no afterburn - 3.5nm

Mirage in afterburn - 3.5nm

One of these is not like the other. It must be working as intended.:doh:

 

I'm pretty sure DCS makes a difference between twin engine and single engine.

As single engine, the closest thing to Mirage 2000 would be AI F-16.

Or even AI Mirage 2000-5. Maybe try that also?

Or even AI Mirage 2000-5. Maybe try that also?

Mirage 2000-5 11.5nm with afterburn

Mirage 2000-5 11.5nm with afterburn

This seems much more in-line with others. Maybe RAZBAM has to look into their M2K.

F-16C no afterburn - 3nm

F-16C in afterburn - 12nm

 

F-15C no afterburn -4nm

F-15C in afterburn - 15nm

 

Mirage no afterburn - 3.5nm

Mirage in afterburn - 3.5nm

 

 

 

One of these is not like the other. It must be working as intended.:doh:

According to my test:

Mirage no AB: 3.5

Mirage with AB: 6.4

Mig-21 and F-5 are around 7Nm with Ab as well

And the winner is Mig-25 with a tone at 23Nm:music_whistling:

M-2000.trk

Can not open this .trk. What version are you on?

Can not open this .trk. What version are you on?

2.5.2.20143 stable version

Sceenshot just after the lock

So,case closed.

Thanks Tumbleweed

Why is an F16C at 12nm and a Mirage at 6nm?

So,case closed.

 

Thanks Tumbleweed

Amusing, but no. Heres yet another track. This time in f-15, as he did. Same issue as earlier tracks. All lock ranges consistent between F-15/18

Mirage 2k 3.5/3.5

F-15 14.5/4

F-16 11.5/3

etc etc.

sidewinder4.trk

SoTumbleweed example is wrong?

Even if tumbleweed is right, why the discrepancy?

Even if tumbleweed is right, why the discrepancy?

Bingo!

Potential issues: Im on open beta. May roll back to stable today depending on what BlueFlag does.

The very first track I posted shows an FA-18 with AIM-9X getting tone at 8.5nm on a Mirage, and immediately losing it. Acquired solid tone at 3.5nm. Its not impossible to get tone depending on conditions and randomness, but its not steady and if I had launched in the moment I had tone it would have lost while in flight without even any countermeasure or maneuver.

There is definitely discrepancy, some are at 7Nm (Mig-21,F-5, 6.5 for the mirage) and some others at more than 15Nm.

So even if the mirage is little bit low some others look to much.

There is definitely discrepancy, some are at 7Nm (Mig-21,F-5, 6.5 for the mirage) and some others at more than 15Nm.

So even if the mirage is little bit low some others look to much.

For that there is the question of, "do they have different, larger heat signatures in afterburner than not?" And the answer is, "yes, they do."

Any issues past there would be balance questions, not bugs as this is. And we wouldn't want to change these things for balance, but for accuracy. If someone wants to run the stoichiometry and solve for X, be my guest. Thats outside the scope of this inquiry though.

Will note that there is a logic to their progression, at the least. Larger engines and twin engines produce a stronger signal than not. Holds true all the way through the SU-27, which has much higher afterburn ratings than the F-15.

I did some test ~3 patch ago it's not the latest patch for sure probably a very old bug.

Btw this low signature means in dogfight the mirage just pops one flare and the missile is defeated.