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Old 12-18-2018, 07:25 AM   #11
OnlyforDCS
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I disagree with the OP. Yes the Spitfire is at a disadvantage if you insist on taking the fight on the Bf109K's terms, but that is how it was in real life as well. So Im not sure what the OP really wants? It seems he wants to play a balanced game, and not a simulation. If that's what he wants then there are plenty of games like that out there, but DCS definitely is not one of them and I hope never will be.
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Old 12-18-2018, 08:38 AM   #12
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Actually that's my point, I'm pretty sure the gap between the Spitfire and BF 109 was not that huge. I'm blaming the fact that is not realistic at all (that's a shame for a simulation) but the gap is real! because the model of the Spit (LF MK IX) , they should put a late 1944 aircraft instead
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
That has been discussed before. Firsts Mk.IXs were released in Dec? '42 though it's a nonsense saying it's a 1942 aircraft, that'd be the same as saying 109 is a 1941 aircraft due to "newly shaped" 109 (as opposed to old Emils) dates from 41. I don't remember the exact outcome of the many discussions but those are the same as P-51D is not a D-Day model, I want 75" MP, and of course Dora isn't D-Day either, and so on. Was LF.Mk.IXc a mid-43 aircraft in the exact same state as we have, same boost and everything? I'm not sure about that. But anyway Spit IX in the form we have (also a few with the infamous 25lbs boost, right) did for once take part on D-Day (sot that's the date everybody takes because Normandy map), indeed up to 40% IIRC of Spitfires in D-Day were Mk.Vb (though they didn't complain about facing better 109s), and a rare XIV which was built even in smaller numbers than 109K4 (~750-K4 vs ~120-XIV IIRC?) is your answer. Fine.


We have what we have in a realistic simulation, what is not realistic is mission conditions for ME, unbalanced pilot numbers in missions as well as training levels (any mediocre virtual pilot has indeed far more experience than RL LW ones). So, deal with it and ask for adequate missions in servers to tackle with that, for instance as said previously wait for 190A8 and limiting the 109 numbers online, or whatever the solution that may pop up with mission creators. Asking for "fixing the Spitfire because I can't fight a well flown 109K4" is not the solution in a realistic flight simulation as Spit is as it is in the model we have and that have no "fix". That's all.

So, people get in ME mostly 109 because it's the best all around aircraft? As said, limit numbers, get the P-51 and combat @30.000ft, there 109 is not that good nor that superior, don't fight them were they have the edge, or whatever, just think of a solution with missions but don't ask devs to "fix" performances like this were a cheap arcade because if you like arcade you already have a balanced arcadish choice no matter how much I dislike it.


S!

Very well said!
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:30 AM   #14
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We are not complaining the fact Axis is better than Allied, we are blaming how unrealistic is the Spitfire. We just need DCS do something about the LF MK IX in order to have a model that fit with the time.
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:21 AM   #15
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Production Mk IX Spitfires started to emerge from Supermarine plants in June 1942. No 64 Squadron was the first to recieve the new variant in June 1942; it was followed by No 611 Squadron in July 1942 and Nos 401 and 402 (Canadian) Squadrons in August 1942 and No 133 (US Eagle) Squadron in September 1942. Production of the Mark IX built up rapidly.

The Mk IX Spitfire entered service in 1942, but the version we have, Merlin 66 engine and .303 machine gun, is the LF version that entered service in Spring 1943, not 44. The Biggin Hill Wing was one of the first to re-equip with the Mark IX LF

The Spitfire that would be nearest on the technological time line and release to operational service to the FW 190-D and 109-K versions we currently have in DCS is the Spitfire Mk XIV.
The first production Spitfire XIVs appeared in October 1943. The first squadron to recieve the Mark XIV was No 610 based at Exeter, which re-equipped in January and Febuary 1944. During March 1944 Nos 91 and 322 (Dutch Squdrons also began to re-quip with the Mk XIV. All three squadrons of Spitfire XIVs were fully operatonal.

Source for above information: The Spitfire Story, Revised Second Edition by Alfred Price, ISBN 1-85409-305-3 (Foreward to the book is by Jeffrey Quill and the Preface by Dr Gordon Mitchell.

Below is a combat roport of action between Mk XIV Spitfires and FW 190 dated 7 March 1944:

Combat Reports
610 Squadron's Intelligence Officer recorded on 7 March, 1944 what may be the Spitfire XIV's first aerial combat:
Black section, (P/O Hussey and F/Sgt. Harding) were patrolling on an east west line about 20 miles south east of Start Point 500 feet above sea level, under the control of Kingswear C.H.L. Station.
At approx 17.30 hours the Section was told to investigate unidentified aircraft 15 miles ahead, on a vector 120 degrees. After two minutes this vector was changed to 150 degress (At this time Black one was using only plus 12 lbs boost with his jet tank still on, and the A.S.I. was clocking about 350 miles per hour.) The section was now outside G.C.I. cover, but after about a minute 3 F.W. 190's appeared from 9 o'clock approx 200 feet below, flying in a fairly close vic on a rough vector of 240 degrees; visibility was bad owing to haze, and the section had hardly seen the E/A before they had passed underneath to 3 o'clock.
Black Section immediately pulled round to the right, and it seemed that the E/A saw them at the same moment, for as our section turned on their tails, black smoke was seen pouring from their engines as they pushed everything forward and dived to sea level. The F.W. 190 on the left of the section turned south, and the other two turned away and disappeared into the haze and glare of the sun. Our section gave chase to the single F.W. 190 which at this time, was about 800 yards ahead, right on the deck. We closed without difficulty but when 400 yards away, Black 1 noticed a F.W. 190 making a quarter attack on him from between 4 and 5 o'clock, so gave the order to "break right". As he pulled up he saw the E/A fireing at him with insufficient deflection, and it appeared that the turning circle of the Spitfire XIV was better than that of the F.W. 190. Black 1, at 1,000 feet, was now in the haze and lost sight of the F.W. 190 and his No. 2.
Black 2, who was on the left of Black 1, saw the F.W. 190 break off his attack on Black 1, and dive south west to sea level, so he rolled down to the left and got on to the tail of the F.W. 190 at a distance of about 800 yards (The F.W. 190 that our section had been chasing originally, had disappeared by this time)
At first Black 2, did not close on the F.W. 190 as fast as he would have liked (probably due to the excitement, he forgot to jettison his tank with Black 1 at the commencement of the first chase. The addition of the jet tank would probably take off 30 miles per hour.) Another F.W. 190 now appeared ahead at about 11 o'clock, and joined formation on the left of the aircraft that Black 2 was chasing.
Black 2 now found that he was closing in quite fast, around 400 I.A.S. and opened fire on the left hand F.W. 190 from dead astern at 300 yards he saw strikes on both wing roots and panels flew off the port mainplane as he closed to about 100 yards. Not until the strikes were observed did the other E/A take any action. Even then he did nothing for some time, then pulled straight up and round to the left, and tried to get on the tail of Black 2. Black 2 took a final squirt at his target whose only evasive action was pitching slightly up and down, before he broke into the other E/A which was trying to get on his tail (although clocking 360 m.p.h. the turning circle of the Spitfire seemed superior to that of the F.W. 190) The F.W. 190 fired at Black 2 but allowed insufficient deflection then broke off his attack and disappeared into the mist. The E/A was not seen again. 60

Spitfire Mk XIV airpower was over mainland Europe by at least May 1944, With Number 322 (Dutch) Squadron over Antwerp and Volkel,

Spitfire Mk IX and XIV aircraft took part in the D-Day Normandy invasion from the 6th June 1944 onwards.

The Spitfire XIV is a perfectly valid aircraft for the DCS WWII map, given the date it entered squadron operational service, as well as the numbers over the battle space launched by 2nd TAF (five squadrons of Spitfire XIV) and also from the South of England. The RAF was able to use older less able aircraft like the Spit IX and Typhoon because the Allies had air superiority. Superiority that is not modelled in DCS or any combat flight sim because we would not want that. Therefore, it makes sense for sim developers to pay close attention to the technological time line for the aircraft involved. I suggest that if the Allies had been more desperate and did not have total air superiority, they would have prioritised more Tempest V and Spitfire XIV aircraft, but historically they did not need to. DCS is not totally historical WWII, but it does its best to give us a sense of air combat with some of the aircraft that were involved. The technological time line of the aircraft we have at the moment is somewhat disjointed, but that should improve as time goes on I hope.

Happy landings,

Talisman
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:50 AM   #16
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i feel like spits actually do a good job.



granted, i have never flown one, but they blaze away at low altitude, force the 109s into a lower energy state, then i come down and scoop 'em with my .50s


i don't know if i've ever seen one lose a bona fide low alt turning fight either. the problem with 109 as always is vertical potential, but a 6000' foot P-51 fixes that problem for you nicely so..


server would benefit from just having more allies than axis so teamwork could be more of a factor than strict engineering advantages. even still, teamwork evens the score for allies more than axis i feel. as long as you can achieve shooting position, you are lethal enough.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 56RAF_Talisman View Post
they would have prioritised more Tempest V and Spitfire XIV aircraft
Spitfire XIV would be a luxe
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Old 12-18-2018, 01:04 PM   #18
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If you want a British bird with the speed to take on or evade the Germans, wait for the Mossie FB Mk VI

Not that it has the manoeuvrability of a Spit, but it doesn't fly like a brick either- and think of the significant A/G capability it'd add to the allies in DCS.

The Spit has its role in MP, low alt turn fighting and maybe a little fighter bombing, it just doesn't excel against the adversaries it faces beyond that role. Flying with buddies is always definitely a help!
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:10 AM   #19
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Listening to ‘spitfire a very British love story’ on audible right now, where it is mentioned that the real spitfire pilots faced the same problem as you, that the enemy would never fight in the way they wanted using boom and zoom, but that the spits were difficult for the Germans to nail due to their agility.

Haven’t tried it myself but I think chucks guide recommends using the spitfire as an energy fighter gaining an altitude advantage and using boom and zoom in much the same way you are supposed to use the German planes. I don’t know if that is feasible in MP environment though...
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechRoss View Post
I have to agree, there is no point going onto Burning Skies if you are gonna fly the spit. I thought I would take a beating because I am a noob but it is just impossible. There is nothing you can do against the 109.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Spitfire we have, and can spend ages just flying her around but there is no way I could fight in it. Can't even practice in it with the AI, again they just have unlimited power and you can not chase them down.

I find killing 109s in my spitfire against the AI much easier than killing spitfires in my 109. I’m inexperienced with boom and zoom though but still it’s much easier than you seem to think
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Last edited by Wolf8312; 12-20-2018 at 02:21 AM.
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