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Old 06-19-2019, 02:54 PM   #311
Kev2go
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Originally Posted by Alpenwolf View Post
Well, maintaining the A-10's is quite expensive compared to the Supertucano. It's a more powerful CAS plane and it's too much for fighting mostly infantries only which is the case in Afghanistan and Africa. These countries don't have any tanks really and they're mostly using hit and run tactics. So you need a lighter plane with lower costs overall to do the job. The Supertucano seems to be exactly that type of plane. The Syrians and the Libyans for instance use the L-39 for that matter. Not saying the US should do that as well, because they can afford to spend more money while trying to be as thrifty as possible.


Yes but to add a29 to fill a same role that the a10's capabilities overlap for cas, and coin. It would actually be more costly, as now you need to allocate money to support a totally new airframe, train maintainers and new pilots for that specific airframe, alongside the a10. It would not make sense to retire a10s and replace them with a29s as long as the usaf or congress decides they are airworthy and there are enough parts to keep them flying, they will be kept operational and likely without any replacement until they are retired.

Especially when there are also attack helicopter available at disposal where there is additional overlapping role between a29 and a10,s in low intensity wars. For cas and coin roles.


It's actually a good thing that the a10 is as rugged as it is. There is greater peace of mind flying one. They are not overkill for low intensity wars. You see Manpads are fairly accessible even among insurgents and militia groups. See the former air war against ISIS over skies of iraq and Syria where a10s were on couple occasions engaged by manpads. Even Houthi rebels fighting Saudis in Yemen had access to manpads , and they have alleged to have shot down an Saudi flown f15. Or in past conflicts the Soviet war in afghanistan, where it was still technically a "permissive" environment, but Stingers nonthelesss shot down Su25's Hinds, by making pilots more cautious when approaching targets and employ stikes from higher altitudes thus reducing aircraft dominance and effectiveness of airstrikes. OR yet another example; Serbia. US quickly had air supremacy, but with tactics, and determination still managed to shoot down various aircraft with the handful of dated air defenses they did have.

Imagine if a10 pilots they did get hit by a manpads. A10s are coming home due to thier ruggedness and flight control redundancy. Will an a29 be as survivable against a stinger or a Igla? I dont think so.
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Old 06-22-2019, 01:04 AM   #312
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Yes but to add a29 to fill a same role that the a10's capabilties overlap for cas, and coin. Itwould atually be more costly, as now you need to allocate money to support a totally new airframe, train maintainers and new pilots for that specific airframe, alongside the a10. It would not make sense to retire a10s and replace them with a29s as long as the usaf or congress decides they are airworthy and there are enough parts to keep them flying, they will be kept operational and likely without any replacement until they are retired.

Especially when there are also attack helicopter available at disposal where there is additional overlapping role between a29 and a10,s in low intensity wars. For cas and coin roles.


It's actually a good thing that the a10 is as rugged as it is. There is greater peace of mind flying one. They are not overkill for low intensity wars. You see Manpads are fairly accessible even among insurgents and militia groups. See the former air war against ISIS over skies of iraq and Syria where a10s were on couple occasions engaged by manpads. Even Houthi rebels fighting Saudis in Yemen had access to manpads , and they have alleged to have shot down an Saudi flown f15.

Imagine if a10 pilots they did get hit by a manpads. A10s are coming home due to thier ruggedness and flight control redundancy. Will an a29 be as survivable against a stinger or a Igla? I dont think so.
Here is a good link about those issues.
https://warontherocks.com/2017/11/oa...-light-attack/

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Old 06-22-2019, 03:42 AM   #313
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Here is a good link about those issues.
https://warontherocks.com/2017/11/oa...-light-attack/
and? care to elaborate. Most of that doesn't really pertain. What i stated is reality not myth.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:38 PM   #314
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and? care to elaborate. Most of that doesn't really pertain. What i stated is reality not myth.
I was just adding more information in this discussion. And that’s an article about OA-X, and therefore about the A-29, the mais topic here.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:13 PM   #315
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Well, maintaining the A-10's is quite expensive compared to the Supertucano. It's a more powerful CAS plane and it's too much for fighting mostly infantries only which is the case in Afghanistan and Africa. These countries don't have any tanks really and they're mostly using hit and run tactics. So you need a lighter plane with lower costs overall to do the job. The Supertucano seems to be exactly that type of plane. The Syrians and the Libyans for instance use the L-39 for that matter. Not saying the US should do that as well, because they can afford to spend more money while trying to be as thrifty as possible.
With all due respect...there is no such thing as a fair fight in combat. The idea that the A-10 is "too much" for fighting infantries is a complete fallacy.

The US Air Force doesn't need this aircraft for two reasons.

1.) in combat there is no such thing as overkill when the people on the ground want the people trying to kill them dead. The propeller plane that everyone thinks "is appropriate" may not be enough when the shooting starts. We owe it to the mend and women flying CAS mission to provide them an aircraft they don't have wonder will bring theme home. You overwhelm the bad guys with devastating fire power ... NOT a cute little airplane that everyone "thinks" is right for the job.

2.) Today we are in a war in Afghanistan. In Five years...it may be Iran...or Syria or someplace Russia used to control. We don't buy weapon systems based on the war we have today. We buy and train and maintain weapons for the fight we don't know about. The A-10 is the only aircraft designed from the ground up for the mission it performs. Period. Implying an A-29 is an appropriate replacement just because it's cheaper for the fight we have now it illogical.

This will be a neat module and I'll get it just because...

But quit trying to sell it as a replacement for the A-10 because it's not.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:16 AM   #316
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Ok but just because it's not a "replacement" for the Hog, doesn't mean it's of no use to the USA.

It could help with border patrol: long loiter time for pennies, electrooptics and SLAR for surveillance (being developed now for the Brazilian AF), carry either Stinger or 9X for drones UAV's and unauthorised sneaky aircraft (along with the Browning .50's).

But I think we also need to seriously consider the cost of wearing out very expensive airframes too early, like Hogs, Hornets, Rhinos Raptors and Growlers. None of these is cheap, replacing them earlier than we planned becomes extra costly for the taxpayer, and arguably reduces combat effectiveness.

Then there is the pilots. None of them signed up to play video games in a sea-container. Sure, it's vitally important work to operate Reapers, but what pilot wants to do that for his entire career? Instead of "stay in the can or quit", they can rotate them through A-29 deployments, keep them happy, remind them how to actually FLY a real plane. Then send them back to the seacontainers, rotate them through on a regular basis to keep them from becoming bored or disillusioned. Keeps the pilots happier, keeps their actual piloting skills sharper, and may translate into savings in reduced drone losses, by keeping pilot operators' situational awareness higher.

Then there is the super-fast super expensive jets. Raptor, F-35. It would be nice to get more pilots to have seat time in them, but with limited airframes, maybe the ideal is to have some do some time in cheaper A-29's too, as not all training has to be in the most expensive fighters ever made! Remember the F-117 nighthawk squadrons didnt fly JUST the Nighthawk, they also flew... hmm, I can't remember for sure, but I think they flew Corsairs and Talons, partly as a cover story, partly to do day flights, partly to reduce airframe hours on the stealth, and so on.

I know the Hogs had to undergo quite a refit to reinforce the wingbox of the airframes to extend the life of A-10's, back nearly 18 years ago. Apparently back when they were made, few thought they would still be needed in 2029... the thinking of the time was "make it able to take a serious hit and keep fighting", but that in the long term, the airframe was meant to have a shorter hours of flight time, to make it cheaper and faster to engineer. Remember, the A-10 Warthog was more an "emergency get this plane designed and flying and over Germany ASAP!! Like YESTERDAY!!!" kind of thing, in response to the realization that the giant Soviet armored columns would steamroller over Western Europe in HOURS. It wasn't really designed to last forever. It's awesome that it's done so well so far, but also keep in mind it won't last forever either, and maybe keeping it's flight hours for when we really need it very badly, is maybe a better choice.


Look, the A-29 may not be the best or cheapest option, but I'm simply suggesting it's not the dumbest idea either.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:25 AM   #317
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Ok but just because it's not a "replacement" for the Hog, doesn't mean it's of no use to the USA.

It could help with border patrol: long loiter time for pennies, electrooptics and SLAR for surveillance (being developed now for the Brazilian AF), carry either Stinger or 9X for drones UAV's and unauthorised sneaky aircraft (along with the Browning .50's).

But I think we also need to seriously consider the cost of wearing out very expensive airframes too early, like Hogs, Hornets, Rhinos Raptors and Growlers. None of these is cheap, replacing them earlier than we planned becomes extra costly for the taxpayer, and arguably reduces combat effectiveness.

Then there is the pilots. None of them signed up to play video games in a sea-container. Sure, it's vitally important work to operate Reapers, but what pilot wants to do that for his entire career? Instead of "stay in the can or quit", they can rotate them through A-29 deployments, keep them happy, remind them how to actually FLY a real plane. Then send them back to the seacontainers, rotate them through on a regular basis to keep them from becoming bored or disillusioned. Keeps the pilots happier, keeps their actual piloting skills sharper, and may translate into savings in reduced drone losses, by keeping pilot operators' situational awareness higher.

Then there is the super-fast super expensive jets. Raptor, F-35. It would be nice to get more pilots to have seat time in them, but with limited airframes, maybe the ideal is to have some do some time in cheaper A-29's too, as not all training has to be in the most expensive fighters ever made! Remember the F-117 nighthawk squadrons didnt fly JUST the Nighthawk, they also flew... hmm, I can't remember for sure, but I think they flew Corsairs and Talons, partly as a cover story, partly to do day flights, partly to reduce airframe hours on the stealth, and so on.

I know the Hogs had to undergo quite a refit to reinforce the wingbox of the airframes to extend the life of A-10's, back nearly 18 years ago. Apparently back when they were made, few thought they would still be needed in 2029... the thinking of the time was "make it able to take a serious hit and keep fighting", but that in the long term, the airframe was meant to have a shorter hours of flight time, to make it cheaper and faster to engineer. Remember, the A-10 Warthog was more an "emergency get this plane designed and flying and over Germany ASAP!! Like YESTERDAY!!!" kind of thing, in response to the realization that the giant Soviet armored columns would steamroller over Western Europe in HOURS. It wasn't really designed to last forever. It's awesome that it's done so well so far, but also keep in mind it won't last forever either, and maybe keeping it's flight hours for when we really need it very badly, is maybe a better choice.


Look, the A-29 may not be the best or cheapest option, but I'm simply suggesting it's not the dumbest idea either.


A10 isnt that expensive to keep running. Has the lowest cost of $$ maintenance of any fixed wing Jet aircraft in the USAF fleet.




There is no need to keep A10 use spare or preserved because against a convential shooting war a near peer adversary utilizing the present day air defenses, A10's uses are going to be very limited. That is unless USAF is willing to accept high attrition rates for the hog. Even life for Gen 4 fightets is going to be tough. Hence the validity of 5th generation Strike fighter; The F35 to replace many if not all F16's in active duty service at some point in time.

You see the A10 has found new life as an attacker for lower threat environments where either the enemy is either 3rd world army with very dated hardware, or outright a irregular militia force where it can shine in CAS and fufill COIN. That being said despite not being nearly as dominant anymore for contested environment, the A10 is nonetheless more survivable than the A29, and can still take on more demanding missions.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:09 AM   #318
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With all due respect...there is no such thing as a fair fight in combat. The idea that the A-10 is "too much" for fighting infantries is a complete fallacy.
... You overwhelm the bad guys with devastating fire power ... NOT a cute little airplane that everyone "thinks" is right for the job.
...
But quit trying to sell it as a replacement for the A-10 because it's not.
I know, man, you're right. I think I should've elaborated more. Others are doing it already. But I need to make sure that I was never referring to the A29 as a replacement for the A-10. Total bogus. Only if there's a task suitable for the A29 -> check out why it was designed in the first place -> war on drug cartels. And surely "drug armies" carry no MANPAD's or have any AAA's. At least in was never reported. You can find lists of aerial strikes on drug cartels in Brazil and actually all of South America where the Supertucano was very successful. You barely find any reports about any resistance. It's drug junkies they're fighting not a militia or a group of armed fighters. And for fighting the like, surely the A-10 can do the job, but not necessarily needed. On the other hand, like you said it yourself, why start training new pilots for a new plane and have 2 instead of 1 operating it, when you already have the A-10. A plane with a massive record and a plane the US is familiar with.
So I think I agree more with you on the US not necessarily needing the A29. Unless they love flying new modules like we do
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:16 PM   #319
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A10 is ten times the cost, maybe more ...
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Old 06-23-2019, 10:05 PM   #320
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A10 is ten times the cost, maybe more ...

Yes and a ww1 replica can be built in a backyard and for cheaper, and utilizie extremely short runways from in the field






Just in case you miss the irony, the point is there is more to aircraft than just "cost"
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