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Rudders


filthymanc

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The Spitfire rudder has been erratic for some time now - since an update changed the way it operates. If you get to the outside view and just use X and Z on the keyboard you will see what I mean. Release from a full right input results in an uncommanded full application in reverse. I raised it as a bug and was told to await a patch in a future update. Still waiting.

 

 

I don't have rudder controller and have it bound to a switch on the stick. Haven't been able to taxy the Spit for ages.

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If this movement is somewhat smooth, it may be the auto rudder option

Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S

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Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8

Maps: Normandy, Nevada

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What's the point in rudders (don't answer that)? Everytime I attempt to use rudders I get erratic movement and lose control in flight. I've softened the axis curve but its really not effective. I'm using pedals. Any ideas? Any advice?

 

Check if your slip ball in turn indicator stay centered all the time you dont need rudder.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Thanks everybody. Taxiing with the rudder is fine. I've not got any conflicting keybinds. It just seems to rock the bird a lot when I turn and try and introduce a tiny bit of rudder. I've really softened the axis curves but still it feels really harsh.

 

I'm at the stage where I feel like the rudder is pointless in the air. Yet I know that this can't be right. If it is user error I'm happy to concede it, but it would be great to know how others effectively use it.

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

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Thanks everybody. Taxiing with the rudder is fine. I've not got any conflicting keybinds. It just seems to rock the bird a lot when I turn and try and introduce a tiny bit of rudder. I've really softened the axis curves but still it feels really harsh.

 

I'm at the stage where I feel like the rudder is pointless in the air. Yet I know that this can't be right. If it is user error I'm happy to concede it, but it would be great to know how others effectively use it.

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

 

You will need rudder in flight at low speed you will need full range at high speed you will need only small small range.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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I suspect this is a multi-faceted issue.

 

1. The real Mk.IX was almost certainly directionally neutrally stable; note that we have a small tailed IX - later incarnations of the IX and XVI (essentially a IX) and from introduction the VII and VII (all powered by a two stage supercharged Merlin series with a 4 bladed prop) all had a broader chord and taller rudder which would indicate the small tail, unchanged since the Mk.V, was a bit insufficient to cope with the extra power and additional blade on the prop.

 

We have a small tailed IX so there should be an element of reduced directional stability. This will manifest itself with some measure of lack of damping to yaw oscillations, aka wobbliness.

 

2. Hardware - I hear a great deal of divergence from players based solely upon the Manufacturer and model of the PC Rudder pedals they use; this comes down to all sorts of variables; the geometry of the pedals (pedal travel, both angular and linear displacement), the quality/method of the interface between the mechanical input and the digital output (pots vs hall sensors etc) and the weight/damping of any spring centring can have profound effects.

 

If you're using a twist stick the resolution of your control inputs will be tiny in comparison to what a real pilot faces when making small rudder inputs, plus you introduce the issue of inadvertently introducing rudder inputs whilst making displacements in pitch or roll.

 

3. Lack of feedback - a problem for the vast majority of PC hardware, and nearly all PC pedal controllers is there is no way to currently feedback simulated rudder airloads, which can make a profound difference.

 

I have Saitek Pro Pedals that are nearly 15 years old now; I find precise, refined control in any a/c in DCS a challenge with the Spit particularly sensitive, however l have developed a few workaround/hacks that make it more than manageable:

 

A. Use the Spitfires Frise ailerons to good affect; they almost eliminate the need to coordinate ailerons and rudder particularly with small-mid aileron displacements, so roll rather than yaw for gunnery or formation corrections.

 

B. Use rudder trim to try and keep the brute coordinated - or something close - in sustained flight regimes.

 

C. During aerobatics/ACM use tiny amounts of rudder to compensate for gyroscopic/torque effects and only go large for full aileron displacement manoeuvres.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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I suspect this is a multi-faceted issue.

 

1. The real Mk.IX was almost certainly directionally neutrally stable; note that we have a small tailed IX - later incarnations of the IX and XVI (essentially a IX) and from introduction the VII and VII (all powered by a two stage supercharged Merlin series with a 4 bladed prop) all had a broader chord and taller rudder which would indicate the small tail, unchanged since the Mk.V, was a bit insufficient to cope with the extra power and additional blade on the prop.

 

We have a small tailed IX so there should be an element of reduced directional stability. This will manifest itself with some measure of lack of damping to yaw oscillations, aka wobbliness.

 

2. Hardware - I hear a great deal of divergence from players based solely upon the Manufacturer and model of the PC Rudder pedals they use; this comes down to all sorts of variables; the geometry of the pedals (pedal travel, both angular and linear displacement), the quality/method of the interface between the mechanical input and the digital output (pots vs hall sensors etc) and the weight/damping of any spring centring can have profound effects.

 

If you're using a twist stick the resolution of your control inputs will be tiny in comparison to what a real pilot faces when making small rudder inputs, plus you introduce the issue of inadvertently introducing rudder inputs whilst making displacements in pitch or roll.

 

3. Lack of feedback - a problem for the vast majority of PC hardware, and nearly all PC pedal controllers is there is no way to currently feedback simulated rudder airloads, which can make a profound difference.

 

I have Saitek Pro Pedals that are nearly 15 years old now; I find precise, refined control in any a/c in DCS a challenge with the Spit particularly sensitive, however l have developed a few workaround/hacks that make it more than manageable:

 

A. Use the Spitfires Frise ailerons to good affect; they almost eliminate the need to coordinate ailerons and rudder particularly with small-mid aileron displacements, so roll rather than yaw for gunnery or formation corrections.

 

B. Use rudder trim to try and keep the brute coordinated - or something close - in sustained flight regimes.

 

C. During aerobatics/ACM use tiny amounts of rudder to compensate for gyroscopic/torque effects and only go large for full aileron displacement manoeuvres.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I've had another go and taken your advice. I've eased right off the rudder and flattened out the curves even more. This has helped and less is more. I've accepted that using trim and roll to control is more the norm.

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  • 3 weeks later...
There’s a reason the pedals have two rungs in the Spitfire. Most pilots during the war were taught to put their heels on top of the pedals for normal maneuvers to discourage using the rudder.
IIRC I've listened it's because higher is better for holding G's while for cruising long periods it's more comfortable the lower ones.

 

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

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  • 1 month later...

Can confirm I have this problem in Open Beta, since I got the Spitfire months ago. Don't have this problem with the Mustang.

 

Rudder goes hard over in the opposite direction when you let off the pedal. The only way is to cancel it out by hitting both pedals at the same time.

 

It makes it very hard to control on the ground. Usually resulting in destruction of the engine - eventually.

Modules - F-18, F-16, Spitfire, F-5, Supercarrier, F-14, A10-C, MiG-21, Huey

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Can confirm I have this problem in Open Beta, since I got the Spitfire months ago. Don't have this problem with the Mustang.

 

Rudder goes hard over in the opposite direction when you let off the pedal. The only way is to cancel it out by hitting both pedals at the same time.

 

It makes it very hard to control on the ground. Usually resulting in destruction of the engine - eventually.

What rudders do you use?

I use T-Rudders and don't have any of the problems described.


Edited by Magic Zach

Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S

System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB

Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8

Maps: Normandy, Nevada

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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What rudders do you use?

I use T-Rudders and don't have any of the problems described.

 

I just have them bound on the keyboard to Z and X. Since I don't have any actual pedals at this time. When I get more money, then I'm gonna look into getting better hardware.

Modules - F-18, F-16, Spitfire, F-5, Supercarrier, F-14, A10-C, MiG-21, Huey

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I just have them bound on the keyboard to Z and X. Since I don't have any actual pedals at this time. When I get more money, then I'm gonna look into getting better hardware.

 

You can utilize twist featured in many joysticks on market as rudder

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Do you play racing sims as well? Pedals for these, both twin and triple sets can be easily set up for rudder operation in DCS. I used to do it for a long time before purchasing "proper" ones. They did the job allright, even in the Spitfire.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I just bought the Spitfire .Any rudder assistance turned off and after a dozen or so to/landings I concluded that all the horror stories about its bad tendencies were over blown.

THEN IT HAPPENED. I could not longer take off as if the plane had a minds of its own. I then started in air and the same thing.

 

Then I went to a outside rearview and there it was. The tail was going left full stop. I see r&l brake settings in the control menu but from what I can see they are on or off and separate. Makes no sense.Am I missing something? Is the only way to taxi is to use the prop blast to sloppily go in a direction and the brake to stop?

Anyways, after ANOTHER CTD issue with the rudder vanished.


Edited by JIMJAM
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I thought I had a problem and it's pretty easy to blame ED, but that was a get out (well it was for me)

 

My solution was a rudder re-cal and more practice. I do think the tail wheel is a little too free and the landing speed window very narrow, but it's perfectly do-able with practice.

 

The uncommanded rudder actuation is still present using keybinds, but when I tested with axes it was absolutely fine, no problems

 

JIMJAM I'm confused the Spit has no Left and Right wheel brakes so something is not right. It uses differential braking like the Russian aircraft, a lever on the stick actuates the brakes and its position determines the braking force. The rudder position determines the proportion of that force that is applied differentially to the left and right wheels

 

I'm now using a stick that has an axes brake lever, but before I mapped it to a brake pedal on my rudder. ED also thoughtfully put in keybinds for increase and decrease brake force and using the Increase Brake Force keybind is a good way to bring on just a small amount of brake when the rudder is no longer effective during landing.

 

A bit Off Topic but I do wish the third party module creators would follow ED's example and map most or all the cockpit functions to Keybinds. Razbam are particularly guilty in this respect.

 

For me though it is probably the most difficult aircraft to takeoff, land and taxi of all the modules I have

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've identified with all the rudder issues in this thread and to solve it I had to cycle "rudder assistance" off, then on then off again to seemingly get it to stick. After that restarted DCS to make it stick. As for it being overly aggressive in wobbly yaw, concur, you shouldnt attempt to use a lot of rudder, you should most likely use curves and if you want to coordinate your flight, it's a squeeze of rudder into the turn and very quickly back out as the nose begins to adverse out over the horizon.

So apart from trimming for straight and level, which is a huge struggle, take off and landing are the places where you need a bit more rudder than a squeeze.

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most people land the spitfire wrong, the manual states to 3 point it however in every video i have seen of them landing in real life, they wheel it on with the tail just below level, also make sure to land with prop at 2500, at full rpm the flare window is much shorter.

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