Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

I just managed to use throttle only for glide slope and stick only for banking the aircraft. And a 3-wire!

Track is attached:Su33 carrier landing with no pitch input.trk

Its 35 years since I flew and instructed in the Hornet (only on runways though :) but in the RAAF the methodology taught and used was Pitch controls Flight path power controls AOA. So use the stick to put the velocity vector on the aimpoint and power to center the AOA bracket. Worked just fine. The USN exchange officers who had been indoctrinated in the reverse method used either one..... of course in reality its a blend of both.

Also with Flaps full and gear down there was no auto trim. You manually trimmed to On Speed AOA. (FA18A/B)

Its 35 years since I flew and instructed in the Hornet (only on runways though :) but in the RAAF the methodology taught and used was Pitch controls Flight path power controls AOA. So use the stick to put the velocity vector on the aimpoint and power to center the AOA bracket. Worked just fine. The USN exchange officers who had been indoctrinated in the reverse method used either one..... of course in reality its a blend of both.

 

Also with Flaps full and gear down there was no auto trim. You manually trimmed to On Speed AOA. (FA18A/B)

Hmm...Maybe USN are a bit strict on the boat? Cuz I saw this said by the USN pilot who flew 18C Lot 10-20:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=190912

In the hornet I typically nudged the stick forward to start my descent once I started my turn from the abeam point (at the 180). But that was it after that it was all throttle and the stick was never considered for glideslope.

 

To do otherwise was to start a bad habit that would get you washed out of the program eventually. It was as notorious as spotting the deck. Seasoned LSOs could tell when pilots were spotting the deck (using the hud to aim the plane to the point of landing) and once they saw enough of it from a given pilot, that pilot was on a COD back to the FRS for remedial training and one more chance at keeping his job.

Maybe on later blocks FCS changed a bit since the NATOPS manual I found was for aircraft 161353 and up (F18A/B/C/D). In the changes I found several Flight Control Computer Software Update. Descriptions on FLAPS HALF/FULL is quoted at op.

Hmm...Maybe USN are a bit strict on the boat? Cuz I saw this said by the USN pilot who flew 18C Lot 10-20

Again, we are talking about small corrections, like in your video where no significant GS correction is needed.

In this case, as IvanK said, it's actually a blend of both methods and it's just a matter of taste/training/philosophy which one is the 'primary' method you are using.

Gross corrections usually don't happen (if you want to continue the approach), but if you get low and/or slow you need quite a bit of power to correct the situation, regardless of the method used.

Hmm...Maybe USN are a bit strict on the boat? Cuz I saw this said by the USN pilot who flew 18C Lot 10-20:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=190912

 

 

Maybe on later blocks FCS changed a bit since the NATOPS manual I found was for aircraft 161353 and up (F18A/B/C/D). In the changes I found several Flight Control Computer Software Update. Descriptions on FLAPS HALF/FULL is quoted at op.

So when I'm hi on glide slope, your telling me a power off correction should not be in conjunction with slight changes in the stick?!?! Literally hands off the stick?

If you're a little high, reduce throttle just a little. You'll see the VVI descend, and the nose will descend slightly by itself to maintain airspeed.

You basically have to be trimmed for the desired airspeed and it all works out.

Gross corrections usually don't happen (if you want to continue the approach), but if you get low and/or slow you need quite a bit of power to correct the situation, regardless of the method used.

Yeah I think so. I'm just experimenting in the video. In F-16, both methods can be used according to the T.O. manual.

So when I'm hi on glide slope, your telling me a power off correction should not be in conjunction with slight changes in the stick?!?! Literally hands off the stick?

As GGTharos said, a 'little' is the key. If you are noticable too high and you simply reduce power until you are about to regain the GS then stabilizing again will be rather difficult (and it will take much more time).

On most planes a gross power reduction means that the nose drops as well, which is what you 'theoretically'want to regain the GS, but that's not precise flying if you let the pitch attitude change on its own and you let the plane essentially fly you instead of the other way round.

Throttle for descent rate, stick for speed. The aircraft will maintain the AoA of you do things right and within limits.

 

You can do this with any of the PFM aircraft, it's known as the region of reverse command and typically presents itself in low speed, moderate AoA situations.

I agree. F-5E is the best indication that stick is for speed while throttles are AoA, while being approximately trimmed on the correct 3 o'clock AoA. Its easily visible if you power up, the sink rate is reduced as evidenced by the HUD camera moving up and likewise when powered down while maintaining speed with stick.

the basic idea of stick and throttle corrections is in this video @9:30:

the basic idea of stick and throttle corrections is in this video @9:30:

NICE a T-6b landing pattern has zero correlation to a hornets fclp or cv pattern, has this guy even flown a tailhook aircraft??

NICE a T-6b landing pattern has zero correlation to a hornets fclp or cv pattern, has this guy even flown a tailhook aircraft??

Agreed. This is like from another universe to me as a hornet pilot.

Bottom line, if you mess with the stick you change your attitude ever so slightly which will result in a hook slap or bolter in-close, assuming you are maintaining a decent glidepath.

Typically messing with the stick to help with glidepath causes you to be all over the place on the glidepath which will have paddles screaming "WAVE OFF" before you get a chance to hit the back end of the carrier or pancake yourself on the flight deck.

This breifing almost makes me think this guy is a P3, E6A or helo guy by trade, excellent pilot I am sure but from another world of flying.

Close to the ground, even small pitch 'corrections' can easily result in severe damage....https://youtu.be/ICDvb3oKHmo?t=46

There are slight fore and aft pressure on the stick while in the groove. If you don't do that, then you've never landed on a boat before.

I just managed to use throttle only for glide slope and stick only for banking the aircraft. And a 3-wire!

 

Track is attached:[ATTACH]176592[/ATTACH]

 

Nicely done! That's typically how smooth night landings are. Daytime tends to be more challenging due to thermals and turbulence and the daytime carrier landing pattern.

The fact that you were slightly fast on AOA (occasional yellow) is a good thing compared to being slightly slow (occasional red). Being on the slow side adds more drag to the plane making the engines less affecting for glideslope where the opposite occurs when you are slightly fast.

If you want to up the challenge try doing the daytime landing pattern, this will add more difficulty since you will be coming out of a turn and into the groove, which will have you fast and you will have a small window to figure out onspeed wings level again just before touchdown.

To answer another post about stick usage, when I flew the hornet in the groove, I had a light touch on the stick namely just my thumb and index finger to avoid influencing (hamfisting) the stick.

There are slight fore and aft pressure on the stick while in the groove. If you don't do that, then you've never landed on a boat before.

For AOA corrections this is true but for glideslope corrections no.

This is a slippery slope to take if you use the stick for glideslope corrections in conjunction with throttle. What starts out as gentle nudges becomes more pronounced when bigger corrections are needed due to turbulence in the groove and the burble in-close.

Your brain will want to use more stick movement to speed up the correction of power being made.

This ends up being a double whammy because when you are correcting for a high on glideslope by reducing power and pushing the stick forward you are exponentially adding too much correction.

By limiting stick movement to adjust for AOA only and NOT for glideslope correction you avoid this scenario. It's also essential to keep the attitude of the plane at a constant to avoid the tailhook from slapping the deck (stick pulled back) or missing the wires altogether (stick pushed forward).

This is why I had only my thumb and index finger on the stick during the groove and in-close because AOA corrections required very little stick influence not because of the plane aerodynamic stability but because the flight computers were maintaining the AOA. The only time you needed to correct AOA was during lots of turbulence when the computers were under heavy load in maintaining AOA.

There is a reason why all pilots in a carrier air wing don't get consistently high landing grades when trapping at the boat.

Those that discipline their technique with the stick tend to stay above average in the grades where those that do not end up with lower avg grades, more bolters and more no-grades.

By limiting stick movement to adjust for AOA only and NOT for glideslope correction you avoid this scenario. It's also essential to keep the attitude of the plane at a constant to avoid the tailhook from slapping the deck (stick pulled back) or missing the wires altogether (stick pushed forward).

How can you alter/adjust AoA with the stick and keep the attitude constant at the same time?

I like reading people who aren’t, specifically USN F-18, pilots argue about what is trained and how to do something with people who most definitely were USN 18 pilots lol. Quite amusing. Me I’m gunna listen to Neofighter since, well, he did it for a living with the USN. Lol

How can you alter/adjust AoA with the stick and keep the attitude constant at the same time?

The attitude remains constant when you are on the target AoA (green donut). When the AoA is fluctuating due to stick input the attitude is no longer constant.

The flight computers do a great job of maintaining AoA while you adjust the throttles for glideslope correction, only in real turbulent scenarios do you see the computer falling behind (slightly).

After doing a search on the internet I was surprised to see not much discussion about the AOA indexer.

The AOA indexer sole purpose is to indicate optimum lift angle for the wings. Just higher than optimum and you will stall when at slow speeds and buffet/degrade turn ability at high speeds leading to a stall eventually.

For carrier pilots, the AOA indexer not only provides the ideal angle for maximum lift but it also sets the target attitude that the plane and hook are designed for in engaging the wires on touchdown at the ship at the given range of speed.

In addition this optimum lift angle is also the optimum for the engines thrust to give you the best effect for glideslope correction. So when not on the optimum AoA, the engines are doing a less effective job in correcting for glideslope because surprise the wings are no longer lifting at their best.

This is why it's so bad to use the stick to influence climb and descent when on glideslope.

Oh and yes, you are moving the stick during glideslope but it's latterally so you can align with the centerline of the carrier box.

During my search on the internet I was surprised to read that only recently has general civilian aviation began discussing the common use of an AoA indexer to avoid stall accidents. This knowledge of AoA indicating has been around since almost the beginning and I always assumed general aviation decided the other existing methods (wing buffeting/noise) for stall alerts was enough.

I like reading people who aren’t, specifically USN F-18, pilots argue about what is trained and how to do something with people who most definitely were USN 18 pilots lol. Quite amusing. Me I’m gunna listen to Neofighter since, well, he did it for a living with the USN. Lol

Don't know what so amusing since we learned that the RAAF pilots fly their F/A-18 exactly the opposite way the USN pilots do.

Don't know what so amusing since we learned that the RAAF pilots fly their F/A-18 exactly the opposite way the USN pilots do.

The RAAF hornet may not have the flight control update to maintain AOA when flaps down, probably still holding 1G or holding zero pitch rate (which should check with IvanK), so more stick input could be needed.

Don't know what so amusing since we learned that the RAAF pilots fly their F/A-18 exactly the opposite way the USN pilots do.

And how many carrier landings do these pilots have right now?

Landing at an airfield does not require you to "hook a wire" does it?

Back in my day, only the french landed on US carriers and they were E2 hawkeye pilots.

I did a search and found no evidence of british f18 pilots landing on carriers.

Did you know that most US Marine f18 pilots don't land on carriers? Only 1 squadron in each of their air wings are designated to fly off carriers the rest use airfields only.

Let me make this clear, I know I already stated this earlier in another long thread, but there is an autothrottles mode that the F18 has that indeed makes you do the opposite of what I have been talking about.

The computer now controls throttle and AOA and all you do is use the stick to stay on glideslope as a result you will push on the stick to correct for high glideslope and pull on the stick for low glideslope corrections.

BUT guess what the computer is doing while you push and pull on the stick? The exact same process I have been describing but only better and more precise since it's a computer.

This was not a common choice for pilots because it was backwards and would degrade your skills at flying manually. Some pilots did use this option but they were typically terrible "ball" flyers and were desperate for all the help they could get.

It sure would be the go to mode for those landing on airfields only (i.e. the british, marines and other non-carrier f18 pilots).

The RAAF hornet may not have the flight control update to maintain AOA when flaps down, probably still holding 1G or holding zero pitch rate (which should check with IvanK), so more stick input could be needed.

This doesn't make any difference if you are stabilized during the approach. It's basically a question of how you learn to fly your F/A-18 (or any other plane).

It's apparent that a precise pitch attitude is of utmost importance for carrier landings, hence you don't have a choice of how to control AoA and/or GS in this case.

Are the auto throttles a closed loop between the boat and the jet or does it work anywhere?

Are the Supers and Growlers using it when they're flying dry land patterns?

Maybe it's my english as I am not native speaker, but I see no difference in what video showed, what IvanK wrote and what did Neofighter.

In all examples throttle is the primary control of the glideslope in final.