Flying WSOs?

I have often wondered for a long time now, if WSOs are actually pilots, meaning are they trained to actually fly an aircraft?

What I've read and heard about this is often contradicting, so I came to the assumption that this varies between countries and different aircraft types. I finally decided to create this thread after I just read some interesting stuff about USAF Phantom WSOs:

[...]

And while not technically authorized to do it, you [the WSO] took every chance to learn to taxi, takeoff (in formation if possible), fly formation, do backseat BFM against other WSOs (Pilots found that amusing), shoot instrument approaches, air refuel, and fly overhead patterns to landing.

 

I never had the guts to do it in peacetime, but I knew an older WSO who switched nametags with his pilot on a crosscountry flight in Vietnam, and flew the whole flight from the front seat. I had no doubt I could have done it - often had to take the stick from LTs and show them some sublety of a maneuver or tactic. Came with the instructor WSO job. I prided myself in flying better fingertip than the junior pilots.

So I would love to hear from people who know, how WSOs are trained in their respective countries and aircraft types. I'll make the beginning:

In Germany we have the dual-seat Tornado, which's cockpit arrangement is totally divided between Pilot and WSO and enforces them to work together, because just very few things can be done from both cockpits. Even though there are no flight controls for the WSO in the Tornado, german WSOs get trained as basic pilots in NAS Pensacola (Florida). That happens on the T-6 Texan II and the T-45 Goshawk, where they learn all the basics to fly an aircraft, including formation flying and even bomb delivery and basic air combat maneuvering, before they transition to the Tornado where they will sit in a cockpit without stick and throttle :D

Up until wealso had the F-4 Phantom II which was also dual seated and AFAIK had pilot controls for the WSO, but I have no idea how they got trained. I guess they completed the same training in NAS Pensacola as the Tornado WSOs.

So, how are WSOs trained in other countries and on other aircraft? Do they learn to fly? If so, what does that include?

I'm especially interested how Tornado WSOs are trained in the UK and Italy and if there are differences to german Tornado WSOs. But I'm also curious if there are differences between USAF and USN WSOs regarding actual flying training.

An interesting question. Have you asked Kirk directly?

Not sure about Wizzos (WSO's), but RIO's (Phantom/Tomcat) and BN's (A-6) were NFO's, Naval Flight Officers..and where not technically pilots (ahem..Naval Aviators).

navy doesn't do backseat flying because there would be zero visibility on approach aoa.

WSO's are trained as navigators and have navigator wings therefore, they are not rated pilots. In my old Strike Eagle squadron, pilot instructors had a requirement that they had to be able to fly and land from the back seat. So during the initial rides for pilots in the Strike, the IP sat in the back.

Good input, thanks guys! USAF/USN is pretty much covered now, so I would love to hear how other countries handle WSOs. Additional info on USAF/USN/USMC WSO training is also welcome :)

An interesting question. Have you asked Kirk directly?

No, but someone else did. His answer:

It was an odd situation - WSOs were expected to be able to fly (and most - like me - were WSOs because we didn't pass the pilot eye test - despite having a pilots certificate), but the regulations only allowed "familiarization training above 10,000'". So we taught ourselves. I got pretty good at it; air refueling was my worst skill due to limited opportunities, but when it tried it I did OK and we took on our gas.

 

Talking to current F-15E WSOs it's pretty much the same today...

 

Dirty secret - jet fighters are REALLY EASY TO FLY. It's the systems (and Gs) that make it hard.

 

Vulture

I'm sure your question means you are interested in this generally as well as the specifics. Rather than tell you what I understand from the UK point of view, I can give you reference interviews from people that did it and it will cover lots of other questions:

Ian Black - F4 nav, Lightning, Tornado F3 (gulf war and Boznia), Mirage 2000C. FYI, he began as a navigator and managed to get into single seat jet.

You MUST stay watching until he reaches discussing the M2000C exchange he did (49min 08). Absolutely eye watering information. Really good on differences between French and British habits and practices.

David Gledhill - UK F4 interview:

Tony Dixon: F4J navigator and discusses the FRG2 and the differences in the US Phantoms. Nice part on DACT vs F15 and AMRAAM

And much more on that channel. There's little tidbits that skirt very tricky questions touching classified information that you can derive information on if you can pick up on the subtleties of the persons communication.

Thanks Pikey, I just watched through the first video and it was indeed really interesting, although it was not really on topic. I'll watch more of the interviews on this interesting channel for sure, but In this thread I just would like to know how much stick time WSOs get in different air forces and aircrafts.

So, from what he said I gathered that RAF navigators got pretty much no stick time at all?

Apart from the back seat role not having access to any dual controls for the mainline UK dual seat fighters that are often mentioned like Tornado, Phantom, Bucaneer, the video is saying that, no, the RAF would see it as a waste of resource to either change role or take a trained navigator and retrain him as pilot on the same airframe.

That two pilots went from back to front seat in his memory is telling evidence that outside of Navigators suddenly becoming "unemployed" due to aircraft leaving service, it simply wasn't in doctrine for the UK at least.

Because those aircraft were not dual control, it's not like you can handover from front to back.

But each airframe is designed differently in it's combat purpose it's as well reviewing some of the other popular two seaters, especially if they do have dual control, since that's where the opportunity lies to perhaps muddy the lines.

Best example of the exception here might be the F-15E which does have dual control and the feasibility then exists.

[edit] seems there was a large difference in USAF and USN doctrine and design regarding your question. Specifically on the Phantom, in the UK, the FGR/2 and F-4J that we had, had the rear seat controls removed and a completely different layout from say a Vietnam era F-4E, which may underline the various design philosophies nation to nation.

Thanks Pikey, I just watched through the first video and it was indeed really interesting, although it was not really on topic. I'll watch more of the interviews on this interesting channel for sure, but In this thread I just would like to know how much stick time WSOs get in different air forces and aircrafts.

So, from what he said I gathered that RAF navigators got pretty much no stick time at all?

Apart from the back seat role not having access to any dual controls for the mainline UK dual seat fighters that are often mentioned like Tornado, Phantom, Bucaneer, the video is saying that, no, the RAF would see it as a waste of resource to either change role or take a trained navigator and retrain him as pilot on the same airframe.

 

That two pilots went from back to front seat in his memory is telling evidence that outside of Navigators suddenly becoming "unemployed" due to aircraft leaving service, it simply wasn't in doctrine for the UK at least.

 

Because those aircraft were not dual control, it's not like you can handover from front to back.

 

But each airframe is designed differently in it's combat purpose it's as well reviewing some of the other popular two seaters, especially if they do have dual control, since that's where the opportunity lies to perhaps muddy the lines.

 

Best example of the exception here might be the F-15E which does have dual control and the feasibility then exists.

 

[edit] seems there was a large difference in USAF and USN doctrine and design regarding your question. Specifically on the Phantom, in the UK, the FGR/2 and F-4J that we had, had the rear seat controls removed and a completely different layout from say a Vietnam era F-4E, which may underline the various design philosophies nation to nation.

Thanks Pikey, that's what I wanted to know. Especially the differences between different services/countries that you mentioned in your edit is really interessting! :thumbup:

The following quotes are from another thread, but are a great addition to this thread as well:

Strange, I always thought the flight controls were removed from the back seat - perhaps this is a regional thing (pretty sure the RAF WSO didn't get backup controls)

It all depends on the customer. USAF wanted controls in the rear seat. USN/USMC and evidently RN/RAF did not.

I think it was also a bit of good luck for us WSOs. Earlier USAF two-seat radar interceptors did not have flight controls for the WSO (F-89 and F-101 come to mind). But when the USAF was forced to get the F-4 as a tactical fighter, it planned on using pilots in both cockpits - hence the installation of flight controls. Vietnam resulted in a shortage of pilots, so navigators were substituted in the pit and voila - the WSO was created (again, actually been around since WW1, of course - Bristol Fighters anyone?).

 

Turned out having the rear seat controls was a real benefit, and has continued with all following USAF two-seaters (F-111, F-15E, OV-10, etc).

 

I honestly don't know how Navy RIOs handle it - from taking turns flying the jet on long deployments while the other guy is eating his lunch or whatever, to having had to take the controls from ham-fisted Lts a few times to show them "how it was done", or tactically to roll the jet during a fight to put the bandit on the lift vector so the pilots could pick it up - in my opinion not having a stick would be a tactical mistake. So in practice AF WSOs are really unofficial co-pilots in addition to weapons systems operators.

 

Vulture