Can an F-14 overturn an F-16 !? - ED Forums
 


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Old 12-19-2019, 08:52 AM   #1
max22
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Default Can an F-14 overturn an F-16 !?

In what world can that be ? The big bird is out maneuvering the Viper ... When launched, the Viper was extremely maneuverable but no more. Have ED downgraded it ?

Last edited by max22; 12-19-2019 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:05 AM   #2
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Hello Max,

Interesting question (one of many in the ACM world).

But I'm sure you can find a lot of the already existing threads about this, here at the forum.
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:19 AM   #3
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I don't have either module, but yes, if you get into a protracted dogfight where the speed gets really low, F-14 can very much out turn F-16 in that case IRL. Though, a half decent F-16 pilot shouldn't let that happen 9 out of 10 times.

That's what I don't like about these "can x out turn/out run/out climb y" questions. These things are usually a lot more nuanced than a simple yes/no question. At what speed, what altitude, how heavy the planes are at the moment? Often even some very old planes can have a specific niche envelope where they may out do a more modern one under said conditions. But for the 99 percent of time, that conditions will not occur, and the other plane will comfortably out do the old one under those 99 percent.

Does that mean than the new plane out turns the old one? Well overall yes, under certain situations no. Does it then, mean that the old plane can out do new one? Well under a specific condition yes, but overall not at all.

That's why these questions, especially without any context, makes me roll my eyes a bit.
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:28 PM   #4
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I'm not sure what the source of this data is but it is correct in DCS if you try it. The Tomcat doesn't need to get to the speed the Viper needs to get to in order for it get a high turn rate.

This means the Tomcat will a turn smaller circle at almost the same rate.

See this post too: At lower altitudes and no weapon loads the Tomcat is a better performer
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...&postcount=163
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Old 12-21-2019, 01:27 AM   #5
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Others have already answered this question.

But to provide some further context, not all Vipers are equal and capabilities come at the cost of performance. Our Viper is extremely capable because of all the advanced avionics and sensors. That also means it's extra heavy because of all those gadgets. And not all penalties from extra weight can be removed but bugger engines.

So yes, this iteration of the F-16 is not as capable in sustained turn rates as some other earlier versions, especially the very early almost exclusively day time oriented (and thus less capable but higher performing) blocks.
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Old 12-21-2019, 08:10 AM   #6
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Our viper is not good at grovelling(flying slow and at very high AoA). That makes it lose to a well flown F-14 or Hornet in a 1v1 unless the pilot is smart enough to play to his own strength and not play the opponent's game.
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Old 12-21-2019, 09:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherS View Post

I'm not sure what the source of this data is but it is correct in DCS if you try it. The Tomcat doesn't need to get to the speed the Viper needs to get to in order for it get a high turn rate.
That's not a high turn rate

Disclaimer, I have the F14 but don't claim to be able to fly the thing, I primarily fly F15 but prefer the F18 in BFM, just getting into the F16.

Radius is seldom the issue. I will say I'm not eager to get into a flat scissors with anybody in an F15, for the reasons you mention; but not sure I'd be eager to do that in an F14 either.

I think it's a little more interesting to look at high performance turns, say a slice at a given perfect speed. F16 is pretty impressive, right on the edge of the envelope at Mach 0.8 it can turn 19-20 degrees per sec (with a radius of 0.3nm fwiw). Tomcat can exceed that -- not difficult to hit up to 23 degrees per sec with a similar radius.

Key is to keep the thing in the air, which is a challenge. I had some success just babying it through the turns, not going that fast (entering at 400 kias, kept it out of gate), easing it just to the shake. Didn't feel that fast but lo and behold, when I looked at the tacviews it was darn impressive.

To be clear, you gotta keep it flying, an issue that doesn't come up with the F16. But, my feeling is, Tomcat is a pretty amazing jet, if you can fly the durn thing.
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Old 12-22-2019, 07:52 AM   #8
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F-16C block 30 was the best for dogfight according to Viper pilots from F-16.net. It weights half ton less than block 50 and had very similar GE engine. It was the most produced F-16 variant also.
Block 30 was a dogfighter, block 40 night striker, block 50 SEAD striker.

Early -A variants block 5, 10 (before block 15) with "small tail" were great dogfighters also, and there was no other highly maneuverable opponents those time.

In dissimilar BFM Tomcats didn't stand a chance against F-16s but this were probably F-14A and lightweight unarmed F-16N with GE engines.

Last edited by bies; 12-22-2019 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bies View Post
F-16C block 30 was the best for dogfight according to Viper pilots from F-16.net. It weights half ton less than block 50 and had very similar GE engine. It was the most produced F-16 variant also.
Block 30 was a dogfighter, block 40 night striker, block 50 SEAD striker.

Early -A variants block 5, 10 (before block 15) with "small tail" were great dogfighters also, and there was no other highly maneuverable opponents those time.

In dissimilar BFM Tomcats didn't stand a chance against F-16s but this were probably F-14A and lightweight unarmed F-16N with GE engines.
what about now? BLock 30 have had avionics upgrades in the 2000s and today are very comparable with its systems to CCIP Block 40/50's. ID imagine with the weight gain made that would otherwise make the block 50 the best performing F16 from the 3 due to better engines.
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:49 PM   #10
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A lot of this boils down to how realistically (or unrealistically) people in MP servers fly.
Most of the F-14s flown on dogfight servers for example are over-g, but who cares, it's only one round. A lot of people exploit the fact you can pull crazy alpha in the F-14 for a split second and shoot, again, pulling up to 10g in the process. Others fly flaps down and overspeed the flaps etc.

So IMO, yes, the F-14 can out-turn an F-16 (without over-g), but IRL no pilot would fly as recklessly as we do here, so flying at the edge of the envelope in an F-14 is a lot more difficult and risky that in a FBW F-16 where you just pull without the risk of breaking anything.

Imagine that a split second can make a difference in a dogfight, if the F-16 pilot only has to pull back on the stick to "instantly" achieve a perfect turn, the F-14 pilot has to build up g more gradually, he cannot just slam it back.
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