New Pay Model

It's funny how people project their worst fears into an idea.

There's been a national discussion about making policemen identifiable in my country. And then police union reps argued that a) putting name tags on police officer's uniforms would make them vulnerable to retribution and b) the sharpness of name tags on the uniforms would bear a high risk of injury for both police officers and general public.

Well... no one said to put name tags on their uniforms. The demand was "make them identifiable", like a license plate makes car owners identifiable without actually showing their home address. And the task wasn't "pick the most dangerous name tag available on the market right now", the task was "make them identifiable".

I don't think the question was "Would you like to immediately lose access to the DCS modules you purchased before, and start paying a monthly fee right away?"

And I'd bet a whole bunch of bottles of beer that, if ED went to a subscription model by December 31st 2019, that the vast majority of "NEVER!"-sayers would still be here arguing about the best course of action with their favorite DCS modules 3 years from now. :D

Let alone the "Give me one reason!" crowd, that have been given at least a hand full of reasons, and then go "since no one gave a single reason, I'm forced to argue that this is just as terrible as I've said right away!!!!".

Well. Since we all agree a subscription model is the most sustainable way in the long run, the thread can be locked now. :smartass:

If I could vote 30x yes on this one I would. Subscriptions for staying up to date with the core just makes sense. Why do people think they should get updates for free? This isn't 1990's shrink wrap software. It's not one-and-done. It's ongoing development. What do y'all think pays for that work? Software development is expensive folks :) Look around at enterprise software and you'll see that's how it's done these days. It's all well and good to have a free entry teaser to generate interest and grow the base, but if you're a long term player, I don't see how you can justify getting this work for nothing.. indefinitely.

I hear a lot of complaining about lack of core development and crusty old bugs, but I don't hear many solutions to fixing that. ED is borrowing from their future and making people mad by having them pay for half baked EA modules. Recurring revenue is really important for companies like this. If you don't like this idea, I'd love to hear some other solutions.

This product is extremely niche. If we want it to exist in 3-5 years, we either need to make it more popular, or come up with a way to fund improvements...or be happier with EA and slow progress. Or I guess we can wait for Microsoft to implement it all again and I'm sure they won't be giving it ALL away for free.

I'm noting paranoia in a lot of the posts that what you've bought would be taken away, which is not the idea at all (at least not how I'd implement it). I'd just suggest that core updates, that I get downloads for every week practically, aren't available without the subscription. If you want fresh core, then you pay something.. and I mean, say $10 a month or $100 a year. If they stop developing core, there's no reason to pay. Simple solution. They really need incentive to develop the core. It'll languish until they start getting something for it. Ok, maybe it's not a subscription, it's a new core "version" that has features x, y and z and you can decide whether you buy it.

For planes, unfortunately, devs would be stuck upgrading them forever to keep you happy and they'd always work. Or they'd release a new version, ala the F-15 to be replacing the FC3 edition I guess.

I see this is not a popular opinion. I still love you all. LOL. Bring on the flames.

Sums up perfectly why I think a subscription model makes a lot of sense.

 

I actually think it's awesome to have Hornet and Viper in Early Access and it's cool that they're available on MP servers.

 

But if it was up to me, I'd rather see some of the ancient Hog and Black Shark bugs fixed, as well as a bunch of core game problems. Plus, stuff like a more detailed weather simulation would be more valuable to me than another multi-role jet, no matter how iconic it may be. A subscription model would be much more likely to give the devs an incentive to develop the core game, fix bugs, deliver a more polished product and keep it polished throughout the entire product lifetime.

 

Just to be clear, I think it's absolutely amazing how ED keep pushing the boundaries of what can be done in flight sims, and how they manage to keep adding new and awesome features. I'd just prefer to see such features added at a higher pace, while my fascination with the modules degrades with each one that comes out.

Amen brother.

I will drop DCS faster than a hot potato if I have to pay a subscription fee to fly my Hornet.

I think they'd be foolish to shut you off if you didn't pay your subscription, and I hope that nobody endorses that, but you wouldn't be getting the any core fixes until you did.

So,i would have to pay subscription in order to play modules that i already payed for in full.Lol..no.:doh:

Jesus no! I think the initial post said nothing about denying access to what you bought yesterday or even last year. It's about getting ongoing updates to the core. That's free work you're getting forever.

Negative ghost rider, the pattern is full.

Cheers,

Don

How about a lootbox system where you can have a chance to get some new skins to your aircraft. Weapons, fuel tanks could be earned with those too.

That would be good for all new players who are just starting the game. First you need to buy a module(s) and get a subscription, then you have much time to learn the planes while throwing money at screen buying lootboxes. Who knows you could even get Amraam or 10xSidewinder from a box. Then you could advance to MP and use those hard earned missiles.

Imagine the joy of discovering a fuel tank from a lootbox, now you could fly farther and if you still had a missile, or even A-G weapon you could do a ground strike.

It pointless that all missiles are just 'given' to you, nothing beats the achievement of opening a gold lootbox and getting 10xMaverick pack.

And what's best of this you wouldn't need to pay for anything useless since you'd already payed for the module(s) and the subscription fee. That would ensure that you can come back to game again and again any time you want.

Obviously the lootboxes would be optional so you wouldn't need to buy those.

Win-win scenario.

I'm definitely on board with micro-products or bonus upgrades or something like that. Basically it's clear to me that they need something that gives them incentive to develop the core.

I voted a very tentative "yes". Unfortunately whatever ED is doing now just isn't working. Decade long module development (Hornet and Viper). Half decade and counting for quality of life upgrades most of which we still don't have (ATC, weather, AI, etc.). Broken/unfinished/seemingly abandoned modules. Antiquated air and ground assets that belong back in the 90's. Replays/Tracks. This list could go on and on. I hate to say it but I grow more cynical with each update and newsletter announcing the same things "coming soon" year after year.

If subscription can put ED on the road to a higher quality, more modern and stable core, yeah, I'm on board.

It's time for real results.

I'm definitely on board with micro-products or bonus upgrades or something like that. Basically it's clear to me that they need something that gives them incentive to develop the core.

Time, testing and development buddy:thumbup:

Is not that easy doing the latest thing around and the most time consuming development type of software around. Well I haven't use or can think of one piece of software that has and does all DCS can do. DCS is not just pretty photo real Bing maps and sky. There is a lot, I mean a lot more in DCS and still a lot more to do and upgrade.

I voted a very tentative "yes". Unfortunately whatever ED is doing now just isn't working. Decade long module development (Hornet and Viper). Half decade and counting for quality of life upgrades most of which we still don't have (ATC, weather, AI, etc.). Broken/unfinished/seemingly abandoned modules. Antiquated air and ground assets that belong back in the 90's. Replays/Tracks. This list could go on and on. I hate to say it but I grow more cynical with each update and newsletter announcing the same things "coming soon" year after year.

If subscription can put ED on the road to a higher quality, more modern and stable core, yeah, I'm on board.

It's time for real results.

Totally get where your coming from and you have been around for a good while.

To me DCS has come along long way the last few years, they have had some setbacks yes and going for another major core update that may delay those other things again.

It is what it is when playing at this level and is why no one else is really having ago in this field. Very hard and expensive to do, no real big call of duty dollars and many complain about, well everything.

Subscription would make sense only if they start it as new product and current will remain available.

Also ED have to finish all EA modules before they can stop updating current version.

Subscription would make sense only if they start it as new product and current will remain available.

Also ED have to finish all EA modules before they can stop updating current version.

I think that's the part that will never end with the current system. Modules will forever remain in EA with a very slow development process while new EA modules need to be released in order to maintain cash flow. And in the end core features/bugs get tossed to the side because there's no financial benefit to fixing them.

This is literally the problem we're seeing now with the current system.

Jesus no! I think the initial post said nothing about denying access to what you bought yesterday or even last year. It's about getting ongoing updates to the core. That's free work you're getting forever.

You are a funny guy.:laugh:

You are a funny guy.:laugh:

What's so funny about what he said? He's actually correct, the initial post said nothing about denying access to what you bought yesterday or even last year. It's about getting ongoing updates to the core.

The problem with a subscription model is that there isn't enough content to justify it currently. The only thing a sub model can do in the current state is potentially take away peoples existing access. Nick Grey already said he didnt think it would fit right now.

However, if some content that did fit came along, I'd be on it. The trouble is, ED develops at small studio rate and are unlikely to suddenly come out with such content. It's not the principal of subscription models, its the value and execution. I can't see it without a lot of leap of faiths.

What's so funny about what he said? He's actually correct, the initial post said nothing about denying access to what you bought yesterday or even last year. It's about getting ongoing updates to the core.

Ah,i see.You guys have no idea how subscription model works.

For title like DCS subscriptions,in my view would kill it(https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/03/subscriptions-are-going-to-ruin-video-games-readers-feature-10509777/).

What is next;micro transactions?!!

I will drop DCS faster than a hot potato if I have to pay a subscription fee to fly my Hornet.

For me it's the above ^

Already said NO in another thread, and already voted NO in this one.

Either I buy a module and it's mine, or then it isn't.

I'm definitely on board with micro-products or bonus upgrades or something like that.

Here Is the problem: do we believe ED needs a constant flow of money to Speed up the development? I'd say it Better: to keep core game and older modules constantly updated? If so, we have two choices:

- a subscription

- micro-products

I am for a subscription and totally against any tipe of micro transaction. Micro transaction Is a bad fashion someone invented for casual smartphones gaming and every PC game adopting It Is casual pay-per-win crap. This is dcs, the most complex home pc flight simulator available on the market, please do not mess It up with microtransactions.

I'm in for a subscription instead. To be honest, I do not think a subscription could speed up the Hornet or the viper. A subscription means more money to ED without the need to release the viper largely unfinished, and the chance to have the new warthog cockpit earlier, for example. A constant flow of money so that ED could focus on core game and finished modules constant support without the need to move developers on newer modules and rush them out as soon as possible even if largely unfinished just to make money.

It's a matter of priorities: core game and older modules support Is more important than new planes and maps, imho. Without a subscription the main focus Will Always be on new payware stuff, at the expense of the old ones.

I prefer 5 modules constantly updated rather than 10 modules, 8 of which remain abandoned for years.

I don't say lose the money throwers and keep the freeloaders. I say make a system that gets money steady from all. A system that is adjustable. The current one is not adjustable. In 5 years a newcomer will have a huge Pay Wall in front to climb. DEAD END!

I don't see what you mean here. The paywall is buying multiple modules? It's not really a wall since you can choose what to buy. Paying a small amount for access to all planes would be better for a late comer, but we also have to keep in mind that subscription prices are just kind of being pulled out of nowhere right now.

How many planes will be ready in 50 years? You must be young because I might be very well long dead in 50 years.

50 years was maybe a little hyperbolic, but the point I wanted to make was that a subscription could easily just make things more expensive. Many people are proposing benefits, but they're not a given. The price hike is.

If I could vote 30x yes on this one I would. Subscriptions for staying up to date with the core just makes sense. Why do people think they should get updates for free? This isn't 1990's shrink wrap software. It's not one-and-done. It's ongoing development. What do y'all think pays for that work? Software development is expensive folks :) Look around at enterprise software and you'll see that's how it's done these days. It's all well and good to have a free entry teaser to generate interest and grow the base, but if you're a long term player, I don't see how you can justify getting this work for nothing.. indefinitely.

We do pay for the development, through modules. I much prefer that flexibility and simplicity over paying a continuous subscription.

I hear a lot of complaining about lack of core development and crusty old bugs, but I don't hear many solutions to fixing that. ED is borrowing from their future and making people mad by having them pay for half baked EA modules. Recurring revenue is really important for companies like this. If you don't like this idea, I'd love to hear some other solutions.

I've proposed tying core features with modules more explicitly before. Let us know more clearly what modules fund what core features so that players can invest in them.

The Ka-50 is an old module, but it is not abandoned at all. Same goes for the other modules, but ED needs to improve them at a time, because they cannot do everything at once.

The current payment model already allows maintaining old modules. It is totally wrong to believe that subscriptions would be the only way to ensure long term support.

Regarding EA I think subscriptions would make things worse, because it would cause less income for ED. Less income means less support for that module. I do not think they would risk putting lots of effort into a module while its income is low for a very long time.

Look at the voting results for this question... the majority are against. Let it go.

I voted no. Dont't like the idea. I have almost every module in my library, so I don't feel like paying a monthly subscription on top of it... (Just ran the calculation... USD 872.67 plus some on Steam)

BUT, if I would be a new simmer and there would be an OPTIONAL subscription based model and have access to DCS. I might be interested in a service like that.

Flatrate or themed packages would be another question...

Example: 14.99$ a month and have access to everything would make the deal worth to me, if I just took the first dive into DCS.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that subscriptions would force ED to think in short terms. Instead of producing long term products with better quality, they would have to worry how they could keep their subscribers for the following months.

A good software architecture needs to be build on solid foundations, which takes a much longer period of time than the time period of subscriptions.

I've proposed tying core features with modules more explicitly before. Let us know more clearly what modules fund what core features so that players can invest in them.

Some features exclusively linked to some modules Is the worst choice ever. For example you buy viper because It has embedded VoIP while the warthog has not? It would be de death of dcs as a comprehensive platform for all modules. Is this your alternative to a subscription?

I would like to suggest something even better:

 

1. Make tech tree

2. Every aircraft is unlockable via tech tree with n amount of "credit"

3. Pilot earns credit with each kill. Additional credit bonuses for mission victories.

4. Pilot spends credit on consumables (fuel, ordinance...)

5. When pilot gets an aircraft, it's a basic model, and with additional credit he can buy better engines, less drag kit, better radar, better ECM, external fuel tank...

 

Now, the ingenious part:

6. There is second in-game currency (gold for example) which pilot can buy only with real money.

7. With gold currency pilot can buy premium time where all credit income is doubled.

8. Player can buy premium consumables (guided bombs, active radar missiles, missiles with high off boresight capability...) only with gold.

Seriously, you just espoused that highly popular tank game out of Cypress/Moscow that does exactly this. It is called micro transactions and they milk the hell out of their player base, it is also called pay to win. Can you imagine MP servers full of Air Quake Whales that have poured money into the game to prey upon new folks trying to get in the game.

Also, if you think the wailing and gnashing of teeth is loud now because "this is missing, that is missing, this is late", just wait till the threads with "I want a refund for this month" because of X problem start clogging up the forums.

Or posts complaining about pay to win start clogging up the forums, because so and so got X because they paid for their skillz.

Some features exclusively linked to some modules Is the worst choice ever. For example you buy viper because It has embedded VoIP while the warthog has not? It would be de death of dcs as a comprehensive platform for all modules. Is this your alternative to a subscription?

That would be terrible indeed. What I'm suggesting is not to limit features to being used with specific modules, but to more clearly market the core features to be improved by a module sale.

For instance, FC3 funded AFM missiles:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=93704

Which all modules benefit from.