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Old 10-12-2019, 08:54 PM   #1
Relic
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Default BFM Defensive Tactics Discussion

Ran into a situation in the Cage the bear campaign where I was RTB and had two Mig 23s come up on my 6. My wingman crashed during the mission so I was alone at this point. At that point I wasn't aware of the Mig 23's capabilities and assumed the tomcat was much faster so I just pushed the throttle to maximum and tried to burn out of there. The two migs continued to close distance (thanks to Jester actually calling it out for me).

So here's my situation: I'm at about 700-800 knots, roughly angels 5. 2 SP and 2 SW. 2 bandits closing on my 6. What's the play?

Here's what I did, which failed: I dropped throttle to idle and turned right as hard as I could while retaining stability, to bleed airspeed and attempt a neutral merge. I spotted the migs coming around and puling on my 6. I nosed down to try and scrape them off on a nearby hill as I maneuvered around it. One did crash. Second one still danger close. I rolled to turn into the bandit, then I went back to afterburner try and then go vertical with the intent on using my climb rate to reduce his energy significantly and then I would roll out and be able to get on his 6. This didn't work. He maintained the climb and his angle and put guns into my engines. I had to eject and my 40 minute mission was a fail.

I didn't understand two important things: 1)The Mig 23 has similar speed capabilities to the tomcat. If I knew this I would have turned into them sooner and had a neutral merge. 2) I attempted a vertical maneuver with a Mig 23 on my 6 not realizing that the Mig 23 has a similar climb rate.

What else is wrong with this scenario? What would you do? Help me improve

Also, yes I understand that AI has a cheating FM.
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Old 10-12-2019, 09:04 PM   #2
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Cheating FM doesn't matter - climbing with a bandit on your six is like rolling out in from of him.

For the rest there are BFM instruction manuals like CNATRAs P826.
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Old 10-12-2019, 09:15 PM   #3
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https://youtu.be/0toNKmMVvbU?t=325

Start at 5:25. I didn't climb while his nose was on my tail. I changed the angle first by pulling into him, then went into a climb. This works on aircraft that don't have the same climb rate. My mistake, to my mind, is not understanding that the Mig 23 can climb just as well as the F-14.
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Old 10-12-2019, 09:31 PM   #4
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Yeah against a Mig-23 I would keep the fight in the horizontal. Rather than pull up into the vertical, I would just keep pulling into him. If you do this with sufficient separation you can get to the merge from a neutral position, otherwise he (eventually) won't be able to follow you because the Tomcat turns way better.
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Old 10-12-2019, 11:04 PM   #5
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Ah cool. Thanks!
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:33 AM   #6
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You should have coughed up my compressor if you are super Sonic since you went to idle.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Old 10-13-2019, 03:14 AM   #7
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There are assumptions and conditions in that video that you're expected to know already in order to interpret correctly.

Your mistake is not having gone to read up on and practice BFM instruction yet


CNATRA P-826 is your friend.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
https://youtu.be/0toNKmMVvbU?t=325

Start at 5:25. I didn't climb while his nose was on my tail. I changed the angle first by pulling into him, then went into a climb. This works on aircraft that don't have the same climb rate. My mistake, to my mind, is not understanding that the Mig 23 can climb just as well as the F-14.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
There are assumptions and conditions in that video that you're expected to know already in order to interpret correctly.

Your mistake is not having gone to read up on and practice BFM instruction yet


CNATRA P-826 is your friend.
Ah, found it. Thanks. I'll dive into it and see what I can learn.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcdata View Post
You should have coughed up my compressor if you are super Sonic since you went to idle.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I don't quite understand. Are you saying the FM is wrong and that the plane should have died from me dropping throttle quickly?
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
I didn't understand two important things: 1)The Mig 23 has similar speed capabilities to the tomcat. If I knew this I would have turned into them sooner and had a neutral merge. 2) I attempted a vertical maneuver with a Mig 23 on my 6 not realizing that the Mig 23 has a similar climb rate.
That said and assuming you endorse GGTharos's good advice, the question is now : what can your aircraft do better than the MiG-23? The answer is : turning. And the higher the AoA, the worse the MiG behaves. This assuming that you both have energy. Which is, IMHO, where you did bad. Your original post is all about leaking out and wasting energy: idle, high G turn ant then climb. In such conditions, even a human F-5 owns you.

Try this little training mission: you're face to face with a Flogger set to 'excellent', both angels 10, both having guns only. Keep him a bit on your right or left side until you merge, so he doesn't snipe you with his gun. Switch roll SAS off. Merge at Mach 0.9 and after crossing, turn hard to him. Just avoid blackout, which means you'll have to play between mil power and PC. Just do what you can to keep the bandit as long as possible just above your front canopy frame. You'll see how the MiG-23 leaks out its energy while turning, and how your F-14 doesn't. At a moment, you'll just need to put him in your HUD and shoot him down to avoid boredom
Attached Files
File Type: zip Caucasus-AA-test-Flogger.zip (1.31 MB, 23 views)

Last edited by *Aquila*; 10-13-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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