Case I Carrier Approach-stable glide slope

I looked first for a discussion on this prior to this and I couldn't find it so I wanted to share what I was doing. Flying the Marshall's pattern , approaching to make my pass and enter the Marshall's. approximately 600 to 1000 ft... about 200 knots. I've set up the instruments and everything to have my systems page up , my HIS , way point set up and I use that one switch to activate that line to make about 3 degrees left aspect from the ship's path, I know my terminology is a tad weak.. please forgive me,...:book:

So, once I'm descending to approximately 450 and then banking around to 350 ft altitude down wind, about 1.5 WP in my HUD, landing gear was just lowered prior , flaps full,... I have this problem with my Warthog maintaining stable throttle speed! I have to find a fixed position almost so I do not have to rev it up or back it off, I need to make things more subtle! I'm just asking for advice on this concept on how do many of you work the gear we have being our throttle for stable air speed? I am discovering if I just maintain proper altitude and throttle speed the ILS will line perfectly all by itself! Mainly throttle speed and altitude and angle of attack seems to follow and come together:pilotfly:

Since many of us use Warthog, do we find that tension set up on the throttle should be stiff or do some of you guys who work it with some advanced skill, might say I need to learn to work the throttle back and forth, I guess weather , wind and weight of fuel will play a roll too of course...

I didn't know too that in the real world, once the pilot informs the Carrier his fuel weight "state 6.5" or what ever the weight is, that the deck crew adjusts the tension in the arresting cables to the actual weight of the incoming flight!:book:

I was so fortunate last night to eat dinner with a friend who actually is learning to fly FA18 E's here in Lemoore Naval Air station. He drew it out for me at the table on a plate. It concurs with our laid out information we already have, but he was very interesting. He said that if you can work that ILS and meatball and land consistently, everything else almost doesn't matter. Your a NAVAL Aviator is what he said. My goal is to work the pattern correctly strictly by my instruments treating a case I as if it was a II or a III. Once I reach that distance where the ILS kicks in, I must maintain proper altitude and air speed and the needles all line up by themselves! This doesn's happen either if your not set up about 350 to 400 ft, But ...But...but...:doh:

How do you guys maintain your air speed? Might seem like a dumb question but how do you work your throttle literally and or what throttle's do you employ?

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but honestly, this is a blast!!:book:

From the sound of it you're doing it all right, I guess. I'd say you do need to move the throttle up and down a lot during your approach. There isn't a 'sweet spot' where you can just leave it and be done.

I usually stop caring much about my airspeed late in the downwind leg, when I extend gear and flaps and just go by AOA from then on in.

I have the Warthog and it feels better to me to back off the tension on the throttle all the way. I can make small adjustments easier like that. The throttle will always be moving a little once you find the sweet spot.

Hey Dragonslayer.

Your speeds and altitudes for entering the stack are all significantly off. Do the training mission included with the module for a CASE 1 recovery to learn the proper numbers or study the NATOPS manual that is available all over the internet.

As to your speed question. The throttle should never be in one spot. It is impossible to maintain on AOA without constantly jockeying the throttle back and forth. You shouldn't be paying any attention to speed because it is irrelevant for what we are trying to accomplish when landing on the carrier, AOA is all that matters. Speeds will vary with different weights and weapons load outs, but AOA will not and thus that is why we fly that and not the speed. In addition, the aircraft should be trimmed up to on AOA so that almost no pitch input is needed, preferably none. Aim for the 3 wire, if you hit a 1 or 2 wire, you're doing it wrong. IRL if you hit a 1 wire that is a big deal and it would land you in front of your CO.

It is good that you are using the TACAN course line and carrier ILS, they help when the ball is harder to see. Once you have the ball, it is the only reference you need.

You should be focusing on the AOA, after the turn to the downwind leg. Constantly work the throttle back and forth around the spot you feel is giving you the correct AOA at the time. As you fly the approach, that spot might change, depending on your bank etc. Keeping the throttle in constant motion also makes it easier to transition into another spot quickly. Small movements back and forth are best.

Add a little power just before you enter a turn, to account for the loss of lift and remove a little power before you exit a turn.

I find the WH throttle to work best for me with the tension on the lowest level, as it minimizes the effort I need to apply to move it constantly and it makes it easier to make small, quick adjustments.

As far as airspeeds go, I only pay attention to it during the carrier break (350-400 knots at 800ft) and until I lower the gear and flaps (250 knots at ~800ft), after that, I only care about AOA (8.1), altitude (600ft on the downwind), descent rate, bank angle and my position relative to the ship. I also set up the Course line to match the ship's bearing (BRC), for Case I (I think it's supposed to be like that).

With the above approach and a lot of practice, I often get 3 wires and stay between 2,3,4 wire pretty consistently.

how do you work your throttle literally and or what throttle's do you employ?

In our simulator, we can't feel if the aircraft is speeding up, or slowing down. Because what we have in our bodies; proprioceptors which kicks in when you're tipped back on an unbalanced chair. In real life, pilots feel everything, but for us, simmers, we have this constraint, thus, we have to rely on our trusty airspeed indicator (ASI).

From what I gather you want a fixed speed to approach a moving boat and just oscillate the pitch? If so, I strongly disagree. First thing I do when I am landing on the boat is to pause the game and unmap my pitch axis. This helps me to use only roll and yaw while pitch for speed is strictly applied. Now the real fun part (for me) begins - moving throttles like crazy to keep that bracket centered and on the crotch. With experience (and I own TMWH and flight HOTAS X PS3 which I currently use because of traveling weight) this comes as a second nature. The Lex Talionis's videos are a gold mine when it comes to landing by throttle. Just with one hand you're grabbing the third wire. The pitch for speed hand.

THE PITCH FOR SPEED HAND

Thanks to all for the information and insight. I do have that NAVTOP FA18 C information manual. All the stuff we currently exposed to from Chucks to Early access guide. That FA18 E pilot last night drew me a map of the Marshall stack and he told me something regarding altitudes and air speeds. So it does really get my attention when he tells me something as I compared it to the info we do have. Two days ago this guy said he was using full after burner and doing a full vertical

Loop. This is actually the first real Hornet Pilot I've been able to talk with and ask questions regarding any of my DCS experiences. Thanks again for the input and advice regarding throttles and thoughts at all. I will keep working with it. This Pilot is my niece's boyfriend.

He's invited myself and other family members to the Base flight sim! He said to me he believed I could fly it so he wants to test me on a carrier landing so I would really like to do it right and surprise myself! I asked him about the TDS and the radar and he said it was classified and I wouldn't be able to lock anything or activate the tac pages. I asked him what version of radar do those current FA18 E's have , and he said ANAGP79-classified. No can touchy!!

I have a vedio specifically on trim, AOA and how to fly glide slope with your left hand.

Come find us on S&A discord... many of us instruct exactly this and have probably flowen with your frind at the FRS.

I am still having a time trying to do a good pattern but have gotten reasonably good at straight in approaches. For me w/ gear, hook and flaps down I am around mid 135 kph. But I only use speed as a key as to when it is best to drop hook and gear (<250) and when to drop flaps (<180) and when to start feeding in throttle (around 145). As soon as flaps are down full, I start feeding up trim to get the VV centered in the E bracket. As long as speed stays between say 125 and 155 the VV will stay centered in the E w/ no more trim adjustments.. From then on, throttle keeps me on the glide slope ICLS line and left or right stick will keep me on the ICLS localiser line. I am using the TM warthog dual throttle w/ the friction as low as it will go. There are times when I am moving it like crazy but that tells me I am behind the curve. I always hope it will get to smaller and smaller movements as I get closer to the boat. When I am still using large movements i hit power and climb out and then hit shift R to do a restart. Edit to ad. I see Lex just chimed in. i would recommend you watch all his youtube videos and take any and all other recommendations he makes. Once you have gotten through the first vid, you will see why I say this.

I have a vedio specifically on trim, AOA and how to fly glide slope with your left hand.

 

 

Come find us on S&A discord... many of us instruct exactly this and have probably flowen with your frind at the FRS.

I just signed up! Thanks , I will soon try and figure out where your at and see what's happening.:thumbup:

Interesting... I was also looking at this video on Youtube. It shows the Pilot coming around and landing on the carrier. As he is about a mil and a half away you can see he's moving his throttle back n forth.... After looking real closely, I too can see he has a red below the ball a little hot then he quickly gets the orange ball in the center to light up and he he is able to keep it there.

I wonder if DCS will ever make a F/A18-E? But even if they did, there sure wouldn't be a 79 radar I am thinking so what would be the point, unless there's an E-lot that has information legally available.

I am still having a time trying to do a good pattern but have gotten reasonably good at straight in approaches.

Well, I 'm also relatively safe while doing straight in Approaches. My one, big, unsolved Problem with CASE 1 Recovery is the last turn into "the Groove". On Downwind I'm stable at 135kts "on Speed" and "on AoA". But in this Configuration I'm loosing a lot of Altitude during the last turn, if I don't correct Pitch with the Stick and add a lot of Throttle, to safe the Aircraft from going down with more than 2000ft/min Sinkrate. But that spoils my whole Setup that I have at the End of the Downwind leg. I don't know how to fly the last Turn without spoiling my whole Setup.

Well, I 'm also relatively safe while doing straight in Approaches. My one, big, unsolved Problem with CASE 1 Recovery is the last turn into "the Groove". On Downwind I'm stable at 135kts "on Speed" and "on AoA". But in this Configuration I'm loosing a lot of Altitude during the last turn, if I don't correct Pitch with the Stick and add a lot of Throttle, to safe the Aircraft from going down with more than 2000ft/min Sinkrate. But that spoils my whole Setup that I have at the End of the Downwind leg. I don't know how to fly the last Turn without spoiling my whole Setup.

One way to counter this is to add power before making the turn. Similarly before you exit the turn, bring the throttle back a bit. It takes a bit of practice to get it right.

... It takes a bit of practice to get it right.

You have a funny definition for 'a bit' don't you? Ha, ha, ha. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I don't track it but I bet my approach attempts are >500 of which probably 75 are simple patterns my biggest problem is matching the radius of the two turns. so I actually end up behind the boat. I extend the downwind just so I end up further behind the boat to allow more room to correct but I have never yet ended up in line w/ the boat (well off the the right some to be in line w/ the 10deg deck).

Flyguy, I have to make altitude corrections w/ the stick also. I completely understand that it is not the correct technique but when I am too far off it's either that or bag it and do a restart. I figure I need practice so I do whatever I need to to get back closer to correct. that's why even the real pilots have sims.

Well, I 'm also relatively safe while doing straight in Approaches. My one, big, unsolved Problem with CASE 1 Recovery is the last turn into "the Groove". On Downwind I'm stable at 135kts "on Speed" and "on AoA". But in this Configuration I'm loosing a lot of Altitude during the last turn, if I don't correct Pitch with the Stick and add a lot of Throttle, to safe the Aircraft from going down with more than 2000ft/min Sinkrate. But that spoils my whole Setup that I have at the End of the Downwind leg. I don't know how to fly the last Turn without spoiling my whole Setup.

One trick is to really be on it and video it. U will see when u loose one component and when u see the loss you work it, and forget the next component. So after 90 degrees the hole thing is fragged.

When in the pit it is hard to work. When u watch it on video, you will quickly pick up the first moment of loss. It's like a house of cards, one go they all go.

I too struggle on the last turn especially the last 45 degrees, i'm too narrow or too wide.

But it's my discipline of the 30 degree bank, The god damn jet keeps rolling, so the time i see it i'm at 35-40 degrees.....well then just compensate the other way right ? ;) Yeah i have 15 seconds to do so. :)

So it is a many things at the same time game......now don't give up after 5 attempts, it takes 50 at a time , that's the discipline, so treat it like playing a music instrument, practice practice.

I've found myself so focused, that i forgot to fly the plane safe.

Here is one for kicks... 330 pounds left 2.5 miles from the ramp. Straight in of course....well if I sink, I need to add power that takes fuel that I don't have, don't have the height to trade for speed either . So dap the power to come in higher with the risk of slamming into the deck at 1500ft/m......So I'm eyeballing it and make the deck pre wires and snag a lucky 4 wire. Turn off the landing look down 110 pounds left ..3 seconds later flameout :). Had I not practiced well

splash....had I practiced more, my judgement of height and fuel would have left me with gas to spare :) .

I recommend spending a bunch of time flying on speed on AOA with gears and flaps down. Once you learn hor to fly straight and level and keeping it there within 20 ft, start practicing level turns with different bank angles. Notice how you'll need a lot of left hand to keep the plane level during turns. You'll finally grasp how to fly on speed and at AOA. Once that is done you can begin practicing descents with different vertical speeds until you learn what you have to do with your left hand to start descending and most importantly how to keep a steady rate of descent once you reach the vertical speed you're looking for.

Got that down? Good. Watch Lex's Youtube videos and start working on the pattern, starting at the initial. For this I recommend Bankler's excellent Case I mission, which wil tell you how well you adhered to the pattern.

I do not recommend just practicing straight in approaches. You'll have no use for it ever, unless you're doing case III. And even in CAse IIIs you'll eventually transition to ball flying, which means you have to master "on speed, at AOA" flying.

Finally, whenever you're flying on speed, on AOA, your left hand will always be stroking the throttle. If you're flying straight and level you might just find the sweet spot and not have to mess too much with it, but more often than not there are small tendencies that have to be cancelled out by minute power setting changes.

It's a lot of work, but there's nothing like flying a mission and trapping on the 3-wire after skillfully executing a Case I pattern. Happy flying

Practice like real pilots. Land on an airfield until you can do it perfect and then go to the boat. Once you have the muscle memory on an airfield, it will be easier for the boat.

This will help you learn exactly the approach turn ... which dictates the quality of your pass.

Hope it helps :)

Speaking of ball flying, how the heck do you do that. My PC is pretty old so I can't run high graphics settings so may it is my problem. I try watching the ball and it is so indistinct that I haven't a clue where it is. From way out I see a group of flashing lights. The couple times I have tried to see the ball, I am only 1/4M out when it gets a little clearer and then there is that big white dome right behind all the lights which is no help at all. I can see the row of lights but where the ball is never clears up for me. Is it my PC?

A lot of people have that particular problem of having major trouble in seeing/reading the ball. I personally like to think that might be related to a certain general problem of object spotting, but the solution is to zoom in the camera a bit once you can see the light.

This will help you learn exactly the approach turn ... which dictates the quality of your pass.

 

 

Hope it helps :)

Thats really a great Video, thank you. OK, back to practice mode....

Remember, the F/A-18 auto pilot will fly AOA in a landing configuration. If you trim to AOA the FCS will automatically adjust to maintain AOA. Hornet landings should be done almost exclusively with throttle. Enter the break at 800' 350kts, aim to have your downwind 600' landing configuration, trimmed to AOA (aprox. 2-3 seconds up trim) with your abeam at 1.1-1.4nm by TACAN, target your decent for 450' at the 90 on AOA, don't pay attention to speed, speed will change slightly with weight, probably 135-145kts, but what you need to be is on AOA hitting altitude milestones. You should roll into the groove ~3/4nm, 370', on AOA, then you should fly down the whole way with throttle. Make three part corrections, if you are low the throttle input should start from your glide slope maintain power, more power, then less power than your initial, then back up to your maintain. Opposite for coming down. Be careful when you are too high, its easy to pull too much power too long especially in close. Remember to watch/trust the ball, don't spot the deck. You will probably feel like you are landing long, remember you're not trying to put the cockpit on the 3 wire or even the mains, your aiming the hook, which is well behind and below both.

Thats really a great Video, thank you. OK, back to practice mode....

Glad it helps

"Snip" You will probably feel like you are landing long, remember you're not trying to put the cockpit on the 3 wire or even the mains, your aiming the hook, which is well behind and below both.

This bit from Opalias above is a key learning point. :thumbup:

Once I realized this my landings improved quite a bit.

This bit from Opalias above is a key learning point. :thumbup:

 

Once I realized this my landings improved quite a bit.

I agree. The first time I caught a wire I was sure I was long.