Any tips for effective BVR combat?

Hey everyone,

I'm trying to get better at BVR, especially on the 8v8 instant action. I've played it probably 50-100 times at this point, but still having problems with effectiveness.

1) Enemy AI missiles consistently defeat my wingmen

2) Friendly AI consistently fail to engage enemy effectively

3) My AIM-7s consistently loft even though they're set to norm

4) Friendly AI either unsure how to effectively use performance of the Hornet, or their Hornet performance is significantly less than what the AI is expecting.

What can I do to do better, other than me getting more lucky with my missiles so that it's a 8v6 match for my AI to handle?

Play against humans. DCS doesnt have particular good AI and solves this problem by making the AI cheat a little bit.

Also start at a lower level.

Start doing 1v1 fights with SARHs, like a Hornet with Aim7s against a Mig29 with Rs for example, then work your way up to fox 3s and then to multiple targets.

Making the groups large doesnt help you learn anything imho.

Try to look into manouvers like the F-pole or notching/beaming aswell. Esp. in a fox1 1v1 F-pole is key and king.

Play against humans. DCS doesnt have particular good AI and solves this problem by making the AI cheat a little bit.

 

Also start at a lower level.

Start doing 1v1 fights with SARHs, like a Hornet with Aim7s against a Mig29 with Rs for example, then work your way up to fox 3s and then to multiple targets.

Making the groups large doesnt help you learn anything imho.

 

Try to look into manouvers like the F-pole or notching/beaming aswell. Esp. in a fox1 1v1 F-pole is key and king.

My problem is more related to AI and friendly aircraft performance. I'm able to deal with enemy aircraft in 2v1 situations easily, but not 3+v1.

The mission usually turns into a completely lopsided battle that blue simply can't win.

I think if you did 8 AI vs 8 AI with the same mission parameters, you'd have a 90%+ loss rate. I don't think this is accurate historically based on level of training of pilots of the respective countries.

"8 AI vs 8 AI with the same mission parameters, you'd have a 90%+ loss rate."

I'd love to see those results. Let us know :)

I'm not familiar with this missions, but a few general tips:

If you don't tell your flight to turn on radar, they won't engage in BVR. Before you tell them to cover you or engage, tell them to turn on radar first. The F-18 is missing some wingmen commands so I don't know if you can actually do this yet.

The AI tends to fire early. If you let them fire first and then return fire, your missiles tend to fare better.

The AI has unrealistically good dogfight SA. Don't get into big furballs with them, they'll usually see you first.

Going fast tends to help your missiles and hurt enemy ones. the Hornet is painfully slow, but diving from altitude will help it get past transonic.

my approach has been to fire order my wingmen to engage and accelerate and fire at around 20nm then bank away and throttle back. At this point I want to avoid the furball as long as I can. I expect my first missile to miss (so use a sparrow) but hopefully have forced one to go defensive. My second missile is fired closer going for a kill - in the 8 v 8 mission I use an AMRAAM here knowing it will go pitbull then turn cold again avoiding the furball. I then turn back in to the nearest foe using my second AMRAAM to take them before turning cold.

Hopefully by now numbers are on my side and I turn into the fight using up my last sparrows and sidewinders as needed. The major threat here is losing SA and getting the surprise R-73 in the tailpipe.

Once the Hornet gets TWS this would become very interesting with an AMRAAM payload.

I've now tried selecting individual radar contacts and ordering wingman #2 and #3 to engage specific individual targets.

I also release my AIM-120s within 15 miles and that has better success.

I manage to win the match if I personally am able to take out 3 enemy aircraft. Why do the Hornet pilots suck so bad?

Also, after reviewing TacView, I've noticed my wingmen dump a huge amount of countermeasures early on unnecessarily, likely depleting their stores before they really should use them up.

Question: when wingmen announce missile launch in a furball, is this to state that missiles are launched toward me?

Have you practiced how to avoid A2A missiles?

If not, I’d recommend that you take a day out to watch some videos and then practice.

By that, I mean that you setup your engagement, play it and then analyse in detail what does and doesn’t work in Tacview. Then rinse and repeat until you know how to react. I found that to make a big difference to my own ability to survive.

tips..

When you about to engage fly as fast as possible before you shoot, and fly higher than the enemy = more range of your missiles. IF you want to use maximum range shots but it might not always be a good idea since max range shots can be defeated more easy. But you can fire and force the enemy to "do something" while you fly closer and fire again.

If enemy shoot at you ALWAYS drop example 6 chaff or 6 flares.

If you drop to little they wont have much effect, and 6 chaff seem to be a good number. ( note in some planes you drop 2 everytime you press flare og chaff button )

Also watch some tutorials online online about "notching"..

Its a bit complex to explain, but watch this video.

basicly if you and the enemy have same range missile, then fly in a 45 degree angle towards the enemy so that he is at example your 9-10 o'clock.

When he fires wait 4 seconds and then turn your plane towards his and fire

The enemys missile will travel so fast it cannot change its heading that easy, and it will also use allot of energy that it does not have and slow down = wont hit you. Since you fired at a close distance that the enemy who fired at max distance you have a much higher chance of winning since your missile have to travel a shorter distance.e

Its of great importance you fire with your plane aimed directly at the enemy for best missile efficiency in this manouver.

Have you practiced how to avoid A2A missiles?

If not, I’d recommend that you take a day out to watch some videos and then practice.

By that, I mean that you setup your engagement, play it and then analyse in detail what does and doesn’t work in Tacview. Then rinse and repeat until you know how to react. I found that to make a big difference to my own ability to survive.

I have no problem defending against missiles, I'm just limited by the number of countermeasures available and how many enemy fighters are still shooting at me after my dumbass wingmen manage to die.

It's pretty easy to defeat missiles, just not sure why my wingmen are so ineffective still.

1. Throttles to Max AB to get my weapons up to as fast as possible to extend their lethal range.

2. Not sure if it does anything for my AI wingmen but I first give them the command to Jettison Weapons. All this does is make them drop their center-line tank, not missiles. I am hoping to increase the jets performance for them, speed and turn rate. The 3 jets with you will comply, the other flight of 4 will not.

3. Left Win + B gives them the command to engage bandits to get them in offensive mode.

4. I drop my tank and make sure my counter measures are set to "By Pass" (switch in front of stick) so I can dump my chaff / flares as needed. (I have this mapped to my HOTAS)

5. I do an F Pole to defeat their first shot, then turn into them and launch a 120 at about 12 NM. I'll turn cold if necessary or press and try to get a quick second shot off. You just have to see how it plays out.

The second shot is either a 120 or Aim-7. If I can get off a quick shot but know I need to run and turn cold it's a 120. If I think I can keep my radar on them until impact, I don't waste my last 120 and will use an Aim-7. By that time, if not well before, it's every man for himself and you have to just play it as the fight comes to you.

It's really hard to plan past getting your wingmen to drop their tanks, telling them to engage bandits, setting up your own aircraft for the fight and firing your first 120. After that it's a crap shoot.

Note: I do try to defeat the enemies first volley of missiles kinetically by using F-Pole, Notching and changing my aspect as to not use any countermeasures (chaff) that I am really going to need once we get in close. It doesn't always work. If I get launched on close then I do dump chaff because you would not have the time / distance to defeat the missile purely on kinetics.

BVR tactics is not a productive discussion until we have full TWS so Slammers can be used they way they were intended, TWS also allows multiple targets to be engaged simultaneously.

After assessing the situation, I will run intercept geometry on them until they are at about 30 miles out. Then I will lock an AMRAAM on the highest priority target. When I get a shoot cue, I launch, then immediately crank as far to the left or right as possible in full burner to minimize the closure rate while still keeping the target locked and watch the TTG timer come down. Once it has gone pitbull, I pull the remaining degrees of heading to notch the enemy. I wait for the result of my missile shot and once I confirm the target is down, I reassess my SA and repeat. If the target is not down, then I resume intercept geometry and repeat--usually at this point we are nearly at the merge, so then it becomes ACM with guns and Sidewinders by then. Now granted at any time the bandit CAN get a shot off at me, but with the right crank and intercept geometry, it usually limits his shot to barely within LAR...in other words, he can take the shot, but I've minimized his PK as much as possible.

v6,

boNes