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F-117


twistking

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Gotta thank iraq obsolete SAM systems for that

 

" Over Bosnia they only got shot down due to flying the exact same flight path, and finally flying directly over a sam site where it would have been expected to have been detected at such distance."

 

They say it was detected 50km away, shot down 10 km away from S-125. Anyway, S-125 is no match for what we have in DCS

 

"ANd no in a giant battle sams and enemy aircrafy are going to be busy dealing with conventional observable aircraft, all on thier very own missions"

 

The problem is that F-117 will be observable

 

All aircraft are "observable" to an extent. You can meddle with words all you want to fit your POV of underplaying the F117's lowered RCS relative to a gen 4 or even a 4.5. The obsolete sam network argument doesn't really fly considering plenty of gen 4 strike fighters were constantly spotted on Iraqi radar, targeted and a number that were actually shot down. IF F117's lower RCS was negligible, then they wouldn't very well have been able to fly unmolested like those fighters even against "obsolete" sam systems, especially when used as a tip of the spear in the opening of the air campaign.

 

Its not like the F117 was designed as a something to be used against 3rd world counties with low tech, but precisely to penetrate airspace covered by ( at the time of its design) modern soviet anti air defenses network to strike high value targets with an element of surprise offered by stealth design giving it considerably lower RCS than lightweight strike fighter. This thing was introduced in the 80s, along the time frame of many NATO "gen 4" aircraft.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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I am not an air-to-ground person, but the F-117 belongs in this game and I would pre-order/early access buy it. It is both a unique and legendary aircraft. I would spend some hours learning to fly it right. But is there enough information available to make it a proper DCS module? I have no interest in "best guesses". I am only interested in flying the best possible DCS World approximation of the F-117 with systems, propulsion, and flight model accuracy comparable to the best DCS flyables. Otherwise it is a waste of my time and money. I can already fly the F-117 to a "reasonable" approximation in other sims.

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Exactly

"You can meddle with words all you want to fit your POV of underplaying the F117's lowered RCS relative to a gen 4 or even a 4.5."

It's RCS is definitely lower then of any 4th gen fighter, but still as you said all aircraft are "observable" to an extent. If one plane's RCS is 10 times lower than another plane's RCS that wouldn't mean that it will be detected 10 times closer than another aircraft. The plane would be detected at about 0.5 of the detection range of the other 10 times "less stealthier" aircraft.

 

 

"The obsolete sam network argument doesn't really fly considering plenty of gen 4 strike fighters were constantly spotted on Iraqi radar, targeted and a number that were actually shot down. IF F117's lower RCS was negligible, then they wouldn't very well have been able to fly unmolested like those fighters even against "obsolete" sam systems, especially when used as a tip of the spear in the opening of the air campaign."

 

Welp, just a simple question. How many non-stealthy planes were shot down by Iraq 4th gen fighters?

 

"Its not like the F117 was designed as a something to be used against 3rd world counties with low tech, but precisely to penetrate airspace covered by ( at the time of its design) modern soviet"

That just means that the plane was already obsolete by the time it entered service because in 1978 S-300 entered service and you know, the largest PESA array in the world and a huge amount of supporting radars. For example, using its low-altitude radar, the target with an RCS of 0.02 m2 and altitude ~ 500 m can be detected at a range of 90 km. So much for penetration into soviet airspace.

 

 

I'm not going to debate anything with you if you are just going to be disingenuous and resort to use fallacies against specific nitpicked snippets and also change your goal posts just to win an argument.

 

Edit:

 

Ah of course. A Russian user from Russian section of the forums.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Gotta thank iraq obsolete SAM systems for that

 

" Over Bosnia they only got shot down due to flying the exact same flight path, and finally flying directly over a sam site where it would have been expected to have been detected at such distance."

 

They say it was detected 50km away, shot down 10 km away from S-125. Anyway, S-125 is no match for what we have in DCS

 

21 and 18, though yes, some say it was detected 50-60km away. And that search radar is a 'long wavelength radar', BTW - same band as most AWACS.

Edit: My mistake. Actually longer wavelength than more AWACS.

Pretty safe to say that AWACS isn't going to be quite so close.

 

"ANd no in a giant battle sams and enemy aircrafy are going to be busy dealing with conventional observable aircraft, all on thier very own missions"

 

The problem is that F-117 will be observable

 

While it can't get away with as much stuff as the more modern stealth jets, ECM support and the generally 'filled with stuff' sky will help it quite a bit to not be very observable at all.

 

I don't know what your imagination is making up, but it is still a VLO, not LO, jet.

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21 and 18, though yes, some say it was detected 50-60km away. And that search radar is a 'long wavelength radar', BTW - same band as most AWACS.

Edit: My mistake. Actually longer wavelength than more AWACS.

Pretty safe to say that AWACS isn't going to be quite so close.

 

 

 

While it can't get away with as much stuff as the more modern stealth jets, ECM support and the generally 'filled with stuff' sky will help it quite a bit to not be very observable at all.

 

I don't know what your imagination is making up, but it is still a VLO, not LO, jet.

 

 

Not to mention the distance of which it was locked and targeted at with the actual s125,d radar ( not by low wave ewr) was right around the time the f117 opened its Bombays, which as we know makes any stealth aircraft more vulnerable by increasing a given rcs. It's quite possible the sam would have had to fire at the nighthawk at an even closer distance had it not been for that, or possibly it may have been incapable to do so entirely. 2 missiles had been fired, first of which missed the predictable intercept path since no defensive maneuvers were even attempted.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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No bomb bays were involved. It flew into its detectable range, that was all. The whole bomb bay thing, special fuzing and whatever else is just stories and not relevant AFAIK.

18km is close enough to clearly 'see' an F-117 by those radars. If you consider that they'll pick up an average fighter at 150-200km, that's a pretty good reduction.

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No bomb bays were involved. It flew into its detectable range, that was all. The whole bomb bay thing, special fuzing and whatever else is just stories and not relevant AFAIK.

18km is close enough to clearly 'see' an F-117 by those radars. If you consider that they'll pick up an average fighter at 150-200km, that's a pretty good reduction.

 

Of course i dont doubt that could have been detected at such range. However I read a source that claimed it was as little as 8 miles when the S125 actually locked on to it. and only 15 miles out when the P18 EWR filtered it out as a enemy contact. 18 km = 11.1 M = 9.7 NM, so depending on which distance you believe, it could have been even closer. But as you say there is certainly no disagreement that either way its a huge difference between the range you would expect detect a typical fighter aircraft and the F117.

 

I don't think it was a falsehood at with regards to the bombbay. I had read about people in the know say so, and also recall reading an analysis from a USAF systems engineer that had case studied the F117 shoot down whilst attending the Air force command and staff college say thats what was taught. Is the AF officer grade educational curriculum presenting "alternative facts" to thier own students as well? I wouldn't think so.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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The SAM site was not constantly emitting, there's not reason to believe this had to do with anything but timing :)

The F-117 was exiting after its mission, it was on the way out ... not dropping bombs. The bomb bay thing is made up.

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The SAM site was not constantly emitting, there's not reason to believe this had to do with anything but timing :)

The F-117 was exiting after its mission, it was on the way out ... not dropping bombs. The bomb bay thing is made up.

 

i know it was not constantly emitting...... You should also know that the first sweep around the S125 radar didn't detect anything, however the allowed themselves for a second follow up sweep because the serbs were confident there were no EW assets covering it.

 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/stealth-shootout-1999-us-air-force-f-117-was-shot-down-heres-how-it-went-down-37762

 

 

IF its a myth or outright fabrication that the F117 had opened its bay doors why is still presented as fact by journalists writing articles to this very day or even by former or current AF personnel with knowledge on the topic?

 

Whats your source that you can claim for 100% certaintly its not the case?


Edited by Kev2go

 

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i know it was not constantly emitting...... You should also know that the first sweep around the S125 radar didn't detect anything, however the allowed themselves for a second follow up sweep because the serbs were confident there were no EW assets covering it.

 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/stealth-shootout-1999-us-air-force-f-117-was-shot-down-heres-how-it-went-down-37762

 

 

IF its a myth or outright fabrication that the F117 had opened its bay doors why is still presented as fact by journalists writing articles to this very day or even by former or current AF personnel with knowledge on the topic?

 

Whats your source that you can claim for 100% certaintly its not the case?

 

I wouldn't hold up national interest as an actual factual source for anything.

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I wouldn't hold up national interest as an actual factual source for anything.

 

Yea I lost faith in them quite quickly. And really laughed when I saw articles right next to each other titled why the F-35 is the biggest piece of garbage ever and why the F-35 is the greatest fighter ever. No consistency, and some demonstrably wrong "facts".

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Yea I lost faith in them quite quickly. And really laughed when I saw articles right next to each other titled why the F-35 is the biggest piece of garbage ever and why the F-35 is the greatest fighter ever. No consistency, and some demonstrably wrong "facts".

 

Just think of them as american defense Pravda...

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I wouldn't hold up national interest as an actual factual source for anything.

 

Perhaps not but my point was they weren't the only ones claiming so.

 

Besidez journalism myths seem to be perpetuated even by af personell. ( I'm Preet sure one of them was who they say they were from a given forum unless the LinkedIn profile they had under same name them too is also fake l, and they are so imaginative they can fake walking the walk)


Edited by Kev2go

 

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