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PIRATE modeling?


Harlikwin

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I assume that the Eurofighter will have PIRATE on our version. My questions stem from how this will be modeled. IRL IRST sensors have a bunch of limitations, such as variable detection range based on aspect, variations in detection range based on weather/environmental conditions (i.e. Thermals don't see through clouds well).

 

And I'm wondering how that will be handled by True Grit, are you guys going to build your own IRST model? And how will it interact with the ED weather/cloud system?

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I assume that the Eurofighter will have PIRATE on our version. My questions stem from how this will be modeled. IRL IRST sensors have a bunch of limitations, such as variable detection range based on aspect, variations in detection range based on weather/environmental conditions (i.e. Thermals don't see through clouds well).

 

And I'm wondering how that will be handled by True Grit, are you guys going to build your own IRST model? And how will it interact with the ED weather/cloud system?

 

You will probably have to wait a little for that. TrueGrit is doing a german Tiffy first and PIRATE is not used by the Luftwaffe, only on test/evaluation Tiffys.

 

From the FAQ:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4260824&postcount=1

What Tranche/Nationality can we expect?

We are in constant communication with the “NETMA” and our licensor “Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH” in order to bring you the most current version of the Eurofighter possible, without violating classified information. I know a lot of you are eager to get information on the version we are bringing to DCS. I am sorry, that at this stage we won't be able to answer any questions concerning the tranche, software or block. Rest assured that once we can say more, we will!

As you might already have guessed from the published pictures and our company’s German background, we will create a German version of the Eurofighter Typhoon to start out. This version will only make the introduction to DCS as we will continue to bring more and more nationalities and capabilities to you over time.

 

Will the Eurofighter Typhoon include HMD, A/G, Iris-T, Meteor, Pirate, DVI, ASRAAM, LGB, ECR, JDAM, HARM, Lightning POD, AESA Radar?

We are working hard to include all capabilities of all different Typhoon nations. However, please keep in mind that there is a limit to what we can display with only using publicly available data. Therefore I hope you understand, that all questions concerning the specific capabilities can't be answered at this point.

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You will probably have to wait a little for that. TrueGrit is doing a german Tiffy first and PIRATE is not used by the Luftwaffe, only on test/evaluation Tiffys.

 

From the FAQ:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4260824&postcount=1

 

Ah cool. The EF will be stupid overpowered as it is in DCS without PIRATE, with it there would be much clubbing of baby seals.

 

Hopefully, ED's new FLIR system will integrate with their weather system and will help with IRST modeling and shortfalls (and regular FLIR shortfalls).

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I assume that the Eurofighter will have PIRATE on our version. My questions stem from how this will be modeled. IRL IRST sensors have a bunch of limitations, such as variable detection range based on aspect, variations in detection range based on weather/environmental conditions (i.e. Thermals don't see through clouds well).

 

And I'm wondering how that will be handled by True Grit, are you guys going to build your own IRST model? And how will it interact with the ED weather/cloud system?

We already have IRST sensors in DCS for the Su-27/MiG-29.

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We already have IRST sensors in DCS for the Su-27/MiG-29.

 

Yeah, and they are a bad joke, modeling wise that is.

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I think in real life that PIRATE doesn`t work that well.

 

Pirate works or doesn't work dependent on what the atmospheric conditions its looking at are. Hence my question.

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It works very well according to what I've read.

 

If I remember correctly (and I might be mistaken because it was a while ago)there was a thread on the other third party projects company section who were making the typhoon (we will not speak their name:cry:) talking about PIRATE. In that there was a reply from someone who was a serving RAF engineer, who basically said it was pretty much useless/unserviceable most of the time and some aircraft had the black boxes controlling it just for ballast. I had suggested otherwise in the thread, but I would bow to someone's first hand knowledge in retrospect.

 

Now this may have changed, as I said the thread was a while ago and part of project Centurion was to upgrade PIRATE, so it may work better now.


Edited by whiteladder
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even if pirate doesnt work, ther must be some merits to these systems as IRST/DMT/FLIR sensors continue to be designed into modern jets. Is this just a result of theoretic > reality?

 

At the expense of underexplaining this and vastly oversimplifying: IRST systems do work however they do have a lot of limitations depending on the actual ERA of the particular IRST.

 

All IRST's will have issues with atmospheric conditions, and basically thermals don't see well through clouds. Secondly thermal background is important, if you are looking up at space, you are good to go except for clouds, space is very cold (aside from the sun) so good contrast. Looking down there a bunch of clutter issues and problems, but sort-of solvable. Then you have standard atmospheric attenuation of signals which limits detection ranges, especially at lower altitudes where you have a bunch of humidity (water bad for thermals).

 

Then there are the challenges with variable target aspects.

 

The other issue you have with thermals is that the older ones couldn't provide range data for a missile launch. So you had azimuth and elevation data, but no range. More modern ones can provide range info, but I don't think its really publicly known how accurate that range data is and I'm sure it varies based on target aspect and bearing (i.e. its probably crap for a long range merging or fleeing target), and then there is the other end of that of how those systems interact in networked environments to generate more accurate range data.

 

The major advantages of IRST are that its passive. And will work even in heavy ECM environments. Given that DCS doesn't model the latter at all, one of the major reasons for having IRST in the game is not present.

 

Historically, the Soviets were fairly concerned about operations in ECM heavy environments, which is why everything from the Mig23 on had some sort of IRST. And while those IRST's weren't really that great due to the technology of the era, they could at least "cue" fighters in the right direction. The US also used those systems, but mostly gave up on them during the cold war since they didn't really perform well. However modern IRST systems are a totally different issue, the technology has come a long way.

 

 

In the context of DCS and what I'd like to see modeled, is actual thermal performance/tracking and issues in look down environments, and also atmospheric considerations, such as being blocked by clouds. And then the issues with target aspect and thermal state impacting detection ranges. And then the various ranging limitations for weapon solutions (This is probably going to be an issue as most of this is probably classified or sensitive info).


Edited by Harlikwin

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Let's just say, when it works then it works amazingly well detecting targets.

But when it doesn't work, then it doesn't. Not a silver bullet, but great feature next to IRST systems on Flankers and MiG's.

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PIRATE should work a lot better than the IRST on the Su27 & MiG29 though, as it's using later generation IR sensors.

 

Its somewhat less of a sensor thing, and more of a processing thing. But yes, PRIATE should work alot better than the mig29 su27 sensors.

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The sad reality is that the FC3 Russian planes have an extremely simply and unrealistically modeled IRST. We will be getting a much higher fidelity IRST simulation with the MiG-23MLA in the future.

 

So we will be able to compare PIRATE to that one at least.

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The sad reality is that the FC3 Russian planes have an extremely simply and unrealistically modeled IRST. We will be getting a much higher fidelity IRST simulation with the MiG-23MLA in the future.

 

So we will be able to compare PIRATE to that one at least.

 

MiG-23MLA has an IRST/EOS? Not that I know of.

I know that the -29A has one, and starting from the Su-27 they had EOS integrated.

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MiG-23MLA has an IRST/EOS? Not that I know of.

I know that the -29A has one, and starting from the Su-27 they had EOS integrated.

 

It does have an early one just under the nose, if you look at pictures.

 

However, IRST in real life depends on a lot of external factors, primarily weather and background signature. In a very denied ECCM environment and when stealth comes into the picture it does have its use given fitting tactics.

 

As for the Typhoons IRST I think it's waaay too early to have any discussion on that given ED still need to revamp the weather and cloud system to properly interact with sensors and match clouds for every client 1:1. Anything else is literally pointless and just as unrealistic as the FC3 stuff. The 29's or early 27's IRST is really only used in BFM and WVR scenarios and never for any sort of known BVR search or acquisition, it's just too unreliable. If you get in a fight though or the guy doesnt see you but you see him, EO/IRST can provide good weapon cueing without him noticing. it can also serve as a backup for a jamming target since the laser range finder still works and the EO can cue a fox two.

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...since the laser range finder still works and the EO can cue a fox two.

Minor nitpick but afaik the rangefinder is quite limited range wise, essentially WVR. It shouldn't be rangefinding targets BVR like in DCS.

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Minor nitpick but afaik the rangefinder is quite limited range wise, essentially WVR. It shouldn't be rangefinding targets BVR like in DCS.

 

In real life it uses small radar pulses to range at long range.

 

The question would be

 

Are the pulses long or strong enough to be detected by RWR,

 

And if using it on modules with laser warning triggers the laser warning at BVR ranges(I think laser has about 7.5km range?)

 

If it triggers laser warning at range too far for laser, then yeah that could be changed for the better and still be FC3

 

It will be very interesting as we get more IRST systems in DCS fully simulated, but I don’t have any hope that there will be a Eurofighter with PIRATE until they add variants of nations other then Germany

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MiG-23MLA has an IRST/EOS? Not that I know of.

I know that the -29A has one, and starting from the Su-27 they had EOS integrated.

 

The MiG-23 used the (TP-23ML) IRST and later versions used the (26SH1) IRST.

 

Now given that Raz is doing the modeling, I have no doubt it will FC3 level.

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Minor nitpick but afaik the rangefinder is quite limited range wise, essentially WVR. It shouldn't be rangefinding targets BVR like in DCS.

 

Well he did say cue a fox2 like a R73.

 

Also, modern IRST's can use angle rate ranging, and other techniques like datalink baselines for range finding.

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And if using it on modules with laser warning triggers the laser warning at BVR ranges(I think laser has about 7.5km range?)

 

Only 7.5 km? That seems a bit short.

 

I would think that in clear skies the range would be much more than that, but I am also basing that assumption on ground operated laser rangefinders, like those you find on MBTs and such. I know a Leopard 2 can range out to 10 km with it's laser for example.

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