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High Fidelity Flight Dynamics and Tech/Academic Initial Demonstration


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SFM, Standard Flight Model, Alot of Stuff (ie Stall Behavior is pre-Scripted)

EFM, Extended Flight Model, Extended Parameters from the SFM (For Engines and Aero).

AFM, Advanced Flight Model, Everything is Done using Aerodynamic Equations and Values from Sources (ie NASA Data, USAF Test Data etc)., nothing is Pre-Scripted (ie Stalls), Plane Flies Realistically

 

The way I see it:

 

SFM - Simple Flight Model (parameter based, pre-scripted, LUA)

EFM - Extended Flight Model for third-parties (DLL hook, C/C++, wHumanCustomPhysicsAPI.h interface)

AFM - EDs advanced flight model (internally used by their AC-10C, P-51D and black shark products)

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There is only one EAFM I know of, and that is the one we create using complex aerodynamic equations and data.

 

EAFM = External Advanced Flight Model. This is what we 3rd Party Devs refer to it as, so as not to confuse it with AFM as created by ED.

 

It can exceed the detail/complexity of ED's own flight models if we so wish. We are not limited.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

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There is only one EAFM I know of, and that is the one we create using complex aerodynamic equations and data.

 

EAFM = External Advanced Flight Model. This is what we 3rd Party Devs refer to it as, so as not to confuse it with AFM as created by ED.

 

It can exceed the detail/complexity of ED's own flight models if we so wish. We are not limited.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

 

Concur with that terminology. I'll use the term EAFM from now on glad we got that figured out as I was using AFM or EFM depending on the company I was talking with.

"Witness mere F-14s taking off from adjacent flight decks, gracefully canting left and right, afterburners flaming, and there’s something that sweeps you away—or at least it does me. And no amount of knowledge of the potential abuses of carrier task forces can affect the depth of that feeling. It simply speaks to another part of me. It doesn’t want recriminations or politics. It just wants to fly.”

― Carl Sagan

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AFM - EDs advanced flight model (internally used by their AC-10C, P-51D and black shark products)

 

The AC-10C, that must be the rock and roll version of the A-10C. No gatling gun, just a loud speaker on the front that blasts "Thunderstruck" when you pull the trigger. :D

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Don't need to complicate things.

 

E-SFM: External Simple Flight Model

E-AFM: External Advanced Flight Model

 

Well, back to topic. Is the F-16 FM done? Anyone working on a cockpit? Or is this project gonna end up as a SDK/template?

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Don't need to complicate things.

 

E-SFM: External Simple Flight Model

E-AFM: External Advanced Flight Model

 

Well, back to topic. Is the F-16 FM done? Anyone working on a cockpit? Or is this project gonna end up as a SDK/template?

 

Hi Dejjvid, yes the FM is done, but I want time to document, clean it, and comment the code properly. I also wanted to give a little more time for some of the important mysteries to be uncovered (why external loads are working, how to model ground handling without using hacks, etc..)

 

It's been crunch time for me with a thesis work for my graduate studies to finish up and I have been traveling for work which is why I haven't given any updates in a while.

 

If I can get a little bit of time I'll try to get the closed source version out to you guys as soon as I can...

 

There will be NO working cockpit :(

 

It will simply be an example (like Wunderluft) but much much more detailed and will actually be documented and using source data...hope this helps

"Witness mere F-14s taking off from adjacent flight decks, gracefully canting left and right, afterburners flaming, and there’s something that sweeps you away—or at least it does me. And no amount of knowledge of the potential abuses of carrier task forces can affect the depth of that feeling. It simply speaks to another part of me. It doesn’t want recriminations or politics. It just wants to fly.”

― Carl Sagan

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E-SFM: External Simple Flight Model

E-AFM: External Advanced Flight Model

 

That's completely bogus. There is no such thing as an external simple flight model. It's just an external flight model. There's no line between advanced and simple... every flight model is a compromise.

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That's completely bogus. There is no such thing as an external simple flight model. It's just an external flight model. There's no line between advanced and simple... every flight model is a compromise.

 

Sure, but you can't say that, for example, Flight Simulator's flight model isn't severely simplified compared to DCS; or the other way round: that DCS flight model isn't significantly advanced compared to FSX.

 

You can't pull a line, but you can make a comparison between two flight models of two different planes, and say 'this one is simple, while the other one is advanced'.

 

Maybe in 10 years time, today's DCS airplanes will be considered to have a 'simple' flight model, while 2022 DCS airplanes will be the 'advanced' ones. 'S all relative.

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Maybe in 10 years time, today's DCS airplanes will be considered to have a 'simple' flight model, while 2022 DCS airplanes will be the 'advanced' ones. 'S all relative.

 

Maybe. There is only so much data available for certain aircraft, and none available for most aircraft. Also, the equations of motion haven't changed in a long long time. We are reaching a point of diminishing returns when it comes to flight modelling and the only thing that could make today's flight models seem simple in comparison would be a new age of supercomputers that could calculate real-time fluid dynamics for use in a simulator environment. Those are extremely resource intensive (talking 8 hours for a fast computer to solve a static analysis).

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Hey all, I just wanted to give you guys an update.

 

I've got pretty much all the aerodynamic features I want in the F-16 and want to get this out to you guys as soon as possible even if it doesn't have quite everything I want.

 

My plan is to release a closed source version (dll only) for you guys to "flight test" and provide feedback. Here is what it will have:

 

-high fidelity aerodynamics

-high fidelity control laws

-flap scheduling and aero

-gear aerodynamics

-NASA thrust model

-Ground reaction model

-Animated collision model

-New 3D model (F-16 block 25 clean with no hardpoints)

 

What it will not have:

-Actuator dynamics (flutter issue of servodynamics with DCS frame time I'm working to fix)

-Speedbrake animation and aerodynamics

-Gear friction/ground handling (possibly)

-Weapons

-Avionics (besides FCS control laws)

-Cockpit

-Dynamic weight and moment of inertia change (static right now)

 

What I have to do before I get it to you guys:

-Finish animating the gear

-Remove private cockpit

-Package it

-Implement ground handling (if I can find a way!)

 

This will allow me time to go through an get the speedbrake aero and animation done as well as think about a way to tackle the ground handling and clean up my code, but also allow you guys to fly the F-16 and give me your useful feedback. I'd consider this something like an very alpha version but I've pretty much put in everything I can figure out on my own about the EFM, there are many more things I'd like to include but I haven't found a way yet and who knows when that will be available to us...

 

My timeline for this is probably in the next few weeks or so and hope to have the open source version out to you guys sometime after that.

 

If/when VRC gets 3rd party status, I'd imagine I'd have to publish the code as-is to avoid any NDA issues but have no idea on that yet...will keep you all updated.

 

Great work so far ...keep walking

 

If you need help or some clarifications for F-16 specialy block 50/52 please let me know!!!!

There are many many pdf's from other sims too that can help you ...

For avionics for APG-68 v 9 and MLU tapes i can help the team as far as i can...

Also any news from this ? ; http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1292704&postcount=4207


Edited by Geraki
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Maybe. There is only so much data available for certain aircraft, and none available for most aircraft. Also, the equations of motion haven't changed in a long long time. We are reaching a point of diminishing returns when it comes to flight modelling and the only thing that could make today's flight models seem simple in comparison would be a new age of supercomputers that could calculate real-time fluid dynamics for use in a simulator environment. Those are extremely resource intensive (talking 8 hours for a fast computer to solve a static analysis).

I second this comment!

 

The only thing we've really been able to do in the last 10 years is add more code to make the flight model "fuller" in terms of what it is calculating.

 

To borrow from computer audio capability - instead of 4 or 16 limited bandwidth "voices" that we had in the mid-90s, we can now have a complete orchestra using the full frequency range 20 Hz to 20 kHz, playing simultaneously.

 

You can't compare DCS flight model to MSFS flight model because one uses equations of motion (DCS) and the other... well, that is anyone's guess, but it certainly isn't physics.

 

Best regards,

Tango.


Edited by Tango
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Hey Geraki, I have no affiliation with that project so I really no clue on the status of that project. You'd have to ask them...

"Witness mere F-14s taking off from adjacent flight decks, gracefully canting left and right, afterburners flaming, and there’s something that sweeps you away—or at least it does me. And no amount of knowledge of the potential abuses of carrier task forces can affect the depth of that feeling. It simply speaks to another part of me. It doesn’t want recriminations or politics. It just wants to fly.”

― Carl Sagan

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Internal ED model that was being worked on YEARS ago, the status of which is a mystery.

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"There will always be people with a false sense of entitlement.

You can want it, you can ask for it, but you don't automatically deserve it. "

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about the same time they started the new flanker model.. haha

 

 

there is no External Simple Flight model.. lol..

the DCS SFM uses thrust, wieght, and some aero/engine data, the rest is scripted.

You can further extend those parameters in the LUAs, but unless you use the External API to build your own flight model, all the stall behavior etc will remain scripted.


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Third party modules can use the Standard Flight Model if they choose. It's up to them if they want to go the SFM or EFM route.

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"There will always be people with a false sense of entitlement.

You can want it, you can ask for it, but you don't automatically deserve it. "

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Third party modules can use the Standard Flight Model if they choose. It's up to them if they want to go the SFM or EFM route.

 

Yep, given the proper data it takes only a few hours to integrate an SFM, but flying qualities all SFM aircraft just feel way too similar because in the simplification you miss some of the important aerodynamic nuances. Also with the SFM you get NO control of your control law logic...which, I would argue, is the most important piece of a flying qualities evaluation since it is the mediator between you and the aircraft and decides how the plane should actually fly in spite of inherent aerodynamic control behavior.

 

However, I have also learned that it takes an unimaginable amount of talent and effort (I would say more so than writing a flight model) to develop the auxiliary systems (electrical, hydraulic, lighting, etc...) as well as a beautiful (and clickable) cockpit model. It all depends if you are going for a procedural sim or a flying qualities sim...then you have the best of both worlds (DCS A-10C that everyone strives for).

 

In any case, no updates on the F-16, I probably won't be able to have any big updates until after Christmas (sorry guys!)

"Witness mere F-14s taking off from adjacent flight decks, gracefully canting left and right, afterburners flaming, and there’s something that sweeps you away—or at least it does me. And no amount of knowledge of the potential abuses of carrier task forces can affect the depth of that feeling. It simply speaks to another part of me. It doesn’t want recriminations or politics. It just wants to fly.”

― Carl Sagan

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Yep, given the proper data it takes only a few hours to integrate an SFM, but flying qualities all SFM aircraft just feel way too similar because in the simplification you miss some of the important aerodynamic nuances. Also with the SFM you get NO control of your control law logic...which, I would argue, is the most important piece of a flying qualities evaluation since it is the mediator between you and the aircraft and decides how the plane should actually fly in spite of inherent aerodynamic control behavior.

 

 

which is why my F-15C flies like poo.

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Hey All, I've gotten PMs from some of you wondering when I'll be getting back to working on this...still really busy with work and school with holiday deadlines. I want to get back to working on it as much as you guys want to fly it! Just wanted you to make sure I didn't drop the project.

"Witness mere F-14s taking off from adjacent flight decks, gracefully canting left and right, afterburners flaming, and there’s something that sweeps you away—or at least it does me. And no amount of knowledge of the potential abuses of carrier task forces can affect the depth of that feeling. It simply speaks to another part of me. It doesn’t want recriminations or politics. It just wants to fly.”

― Carl Sagan

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