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Old 09-07-2018, 04:59 AM   #1
robert.clark251
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Default Republic F-105

I just read a post under the P-47 thread the reason ED or third parties would not want to do the Thud is because Republic has destroyed all the information on it. If anyone is interested, I know I am, I found an original manual to the Thud and we also have one here at a local Air Museum in Dallas. Its a static aircraft but I am sure we can dig up info on it. I would love to be a part of bringing this Vietnam icon to life in DCS. Who else would be interested? For third party devs, please reach out to me if you are interested.

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Old 09-07-2018, 07:28 AM   #2
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If you go searching, you'll find a dev post saying a manual makes up only a fraction of the data the devs need to build a module.
There's likely to be more info on the F-105 around though, simply as it's newer than the P-47.

Anyway, people have been asking for years for a F-105:
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105

It's not happened yet, so I'd imagine none of the current 3rd parties are interested.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:59 AM   #3
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A static aircraft is effectively useless for anything besides what an aircraft looks like, provided it's even the model it claims to be (museums are notorious for presenting aircraft as models other than what they are, i.e. an F-4B as an E or some nonsense, the one near my house is like that)

That said, I think it was Razbam had some WiP screenshots of a 105 3d model. Whether it's a AI unit or future module was unstated. I don't know anything about flight data availability, either.
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzles View Post
If you go searching, you'll find a dev post saying a manual makes up only a fraction of the data the devs need to build a module.
There's likely to be more info on the F-105 around though, simply as it's newer than the P-47.

Anyway, people have been asking for years for a F-105:
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.p...ighlight=f-105

It's not happened yet, so I'd imagine none of the current 3rd parties are interested.
There's a lot of performance and aero data out there for the Thud if you know where to look. The tough stuff to find will be the -34 and other weapons stuff.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:28 AM   #5
robert.clark251
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I kind of figured this was the case. With Heatblur pursuing the license information on the Intruder, having the Mig-15, Huey, and other aircraft on the way, it would be nice to see more Vietnam era coming into play.

It is also a selfish request as I am a very big fan of the 105. She was a good looking aircraft. A super sabre would be awesome too. I would be curious to see how many people would be interested in seeing it brought to DCS.






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Old 09-13-2018, 04:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by robert.clark251 View Post
I kind of figured this was the case. With Heatblur pursuing the license information on the Intruder, having the Mig-15, Huey, and other aircraft on the way, it would be nice to see more Vietnam era coming into play.

It is also a selfish request as I am a very big fan of the 105. She was a good looking aircraft. A super sabre would be awesome too. I would be curious to see how many people would be interested in seeing it brought to DCS.
I'm FULLY with you on this F-105 !!! I would expect there are many more Vietnam-era aircraft fans out there than is apparent. The F-105D, in particular, is THEE quintessential Vietnam-era strike aircraft of the first half of the Vietnam war. I divide the Vietnam war into two periods, 1964 to 1968 and 1969 to 1972. From about 65 to 68, it was the F-105D making strikes to Route Pack VI A, the Hanoi area. From about 69 to 72 the F-105 was replaced by the F-4E making the strikes. There are already plans, I believe, to make the F-4E. The F-105D is a great aircraft, much maligned as ineffective and even "boring". "Look how many got shot down. It was a terrible plane! It couldn't dogfight like an F-16. Who would want to fly one?" Are the usual arguments. I cannot believe that there is not enough data to make a very good simulation of the F-105D. True, it is not the best aircraft. But it was the best aircraft in the world, at that time, to do that job. I don't buy the argument that Republic has destroyed all the data. Flight manuals exist. Pilots who flew the F-105D still exist. F-105D's that really are F-105D's exist in museums. Read first person accounts of flying the F-105D, "When Thunder Rolled" by Ed Rasimus and "Thud Ridge" by Jack Broughton. Then tell me you don't want to fly the F-105D. I somewhat felt the same way. I read those books. They changed my mind! Are the devs saying that there are data for lift, drag and moment curves for many sections of the wings and stabilizers in various densities of air at various speeds provided by manufacturer test flights that they use to make up the flight models of various aircraft? Is that how they made the F-86F and the P-51D? Or are they saying there is not enough data about how the flight data computer and/or flight control augmentation systems worked? I think if they want to make an F-105D, they will make an F-105D...if they can sell enough copies to make it economical. I have no idea how many copies of the F-5E were sold or how many of the F/A-18C were sold. At $70/copy, I would buy every version of Vietnam-era aircraft the developers produce, provided it is at least at the level of the Belsimtek F-5E in detail. And I would buy a 1960's-era map module for Vietnam Theater of Operations, which would have to include Thailand, Laos and North Vietnam. So, F-4E and/or F-4B/C/D, F-100D, A-4F, A-6A, A-7B ... I await you. I'll probably have to wait forever, but I'm ready to buy when you are ready to fly.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Andrew8604 View Post
I'm FULLY with you on this F-105 !!! I would expect there are many more Vietnam-era aircraft fans out there than is apparent. The F-105D, in particular, is THEE quintessential Vietnam-era strike aircraft of the first half of the Vietnam war. I divide the Vietnam war into two periods, 1964 to 1968 and 1969 to 1972. From about 65 to 68, it was the F-105D making strikes to Route Pack VI A, the Hanoi area. From about 69 to 72 the F-105 was replaced by the F-4E making the strikes. There are already plans, I believe, to make the F-4E. The F-105D is a great aircraft, much maligned as ineffective and even "boring". "Look how many got shot down. It was a terrible plane! It couldn't dogfight like an F-16. Who would want to fly one?" Are the usual arguments. I cannot believe that there is not enough data to make a very good simulation of the F-105D. True, it is not the best aircraft. But it was the best aircraft in the world, at that time, to do that job. I don't buy the argument that Republic has destroyed all the data. Flight manuals exist. Pilots who flew the F-105D still exist. F-105D's that really are F-105D's exist in museums. Read first person accounts of flying the F-105D, "When Thunder Rolled" by Ed Rasimus and "Thud Ridge" by Jack Broughton. Then tell me you don't want to fly the F-105D. I somewhat felt the same way. I read those books. They changed my mind! Are the devs saying that there are data for lift, drag and moment curves for many sections of the wings and stabilizers in various densities of air at various speeds provided by manufacturer test flights that they use to make up the flight models of various aircraft? Is that how they made the F-86F and the P-51D? Or are they saying there is not enough data about how the flight data computer and/or flight control augmentation systems worked? I think if they want to make an F-105D, they will make an F-105D...if they can sell enough copies to make it economical. I have no idea how many copies of the F-5E were sold or how many of the F/A-18C were sold. At $70/copy, I would buy every version of Vietnam-era aircraft the developers produce, provided it is at least at the level of the Belsimtek F-5E in detail. And I would buy a 1960's-era map module for Vietnam Theater of Operations, which would have to include Thailand, Laos and North Vietnam. So, F-4E and/or F-4B/C/D, F-100D, A-4F, A-6A, A-7B ... I await you. I'll probably have to wait forever, but I'm ready to buy when you are ready to fly.

There is a way to regain some lost flight data but it is not easy or cheap. DCS ran into the same issue when they started development of the P-47 Thunderbolt. Here is their quote:
"In addition to completing the final touches to the Spitfire (fuel tanks and bombs), our other primary focus has been the P-47D. More so than any other warbird though, this has been the biggest challenge due to the lack of data. Following the war, all wind tunnel and needed flight dynamics data was destroyed. To overcome this, we are using Flow Vision to recreate the needed data. This has proven a long and expensive endeavor. However, to create the detailed flight dynamics that DCS requires, we consider it mandatory."


I agree that a map of Vietnam should be done. It would be very popular. I also think a map of North Korea would be very popular nowadays not only to recreate the Korean war but there would be a lot of others interested in creating what if scenarios if you now what I mean.


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Old 09-13-2018, 07:13 PM   #8
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On the subject of flight data, no arguments here that it would be a difficult endeavor. I am no designer so I must take at face value what the devs say to us when they attempt to find this stuff. But also as stated, I think they know they have a community willing to put in the leg work to help them find this information, and numerous times I have scene them reach out to people on these forums for that exact stuff. I think this is what makes the DCS community so good. I hope some day they agree the 105 needs to make its new debut amongst the virtual world.

On the topic of Vietnam map, absolutely. I could not see a reason why it should not be made eventually. I believe I read somewhere they had started out with less detailed environments to get the new tech up and rolling and then move into more densley populated environments. A jungle with winding rivers, mountains, proper weather, hooches, rice paddies, surf zones, villages and cities would be a beast AND AWESOME. The playability for helos alone would explode. Troop transports, ground attacks, and even the introduction of Helos such as the CH-46, OH-6, H-34, and HH-3E Jolly Green would be bad ass.

In time, I am sure we will see this. It was a very air superiority driven war. With the A-6 inbound, hopefully A-7 at some point, and F-4E, along with the Mig-15, it would be a good time.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by robert.clark251 View Post
On the subject of flight data, no arguments here that it would be a difficult endeavor. I am no designer so I must take at face value what the devs say to us when they attempt to find this stuff. But also as stated, I think they know they have a community willing to put in the leg work to help them find this information, and numerous times I have scene them reach out to people on these forums for that exact stuff. I think this is what makes the DCS community so good. I hope some day they agree the 105 needs to make its new debut amongst the virtual world.
There's enough performance and aero data sitting out there to create a viable flight model. Currently on my hard drive I have multiple performance annexes and many wind tunnel reports. Republic leaned heavily on NASA in the 50's and those reports are all public domain. One of those NASA reports has the full 6 DOF equations of motion for the A/C in 3 configurations as well as the control laws for the stability augmentation system. I contend someone could build a viable flight model and the -1 will give you most of the systems.

Now, since this is dCs, the difficult part is finding the weapons' manuals, especially given that it was intended as a nuclear delivery platform... I've yet to see any of the -34's easily available online, now if anyone has one to share...

I also am a big Thud fan, if it weren't for the day job I might just relapse to my Aero Eng roots and prior flight test experience to work some of the flight model stuff...

After spending time in the performance indices the Thud wasn't that bad of a fighter for the time...Most of the poor performance I believe is attributable to the manpower/personnel policies the Thud left enough potential improvements on the table to make the "what if" worth thinking about...
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:22 AM   #10
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My grandest dream of DCS, has me hunting SAMs in a F-105G...
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