Hopeful answers to slow progress - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2018, 04:22 AM   #1
robert.clark251
Member
 
robert.clark251's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 262
Default Hopeful answers to slow progress

This thread is really directed toward the VEAO devs and is not at all meant to be a bash fest or turn into one.

I have read many comments from fellow sim enthusiast who are disappointed in the slow progress of the P-40 and Hawk. At one point I was guilty of slamming you guys because I was one of those frusterated purchasers of the P-40. I sincerley apologize for being that way as I know running a business can take many turns and set backs. I still hold faith in you guys but that leads to the next set of questions which I am hoping you can answer and maybe help the community better understand, if you are in a position to do so.

I believe the frusteration with the community is obviously watching other devs bang out modules while VEAO struggles to complete one and release a second. I will give you guys due credit, there have been patches coming out for the Hawk and I know these modules have not been abandoned.

If I remember correctly, at one point it was stated you guys wanted to wait till 2.5 was released so you had a more stable engine to work with. I also remember you taking a second endeavor into the commercial sim world, where Flight Sim World crashed and burned (not yalls fault). I would like to know if you could possibly explain some of the setbacks with DCS and what you guys are doing to push forward.

Is 2.5 and the newer tech helping with production now? How big is the team at VEAO? Are you still planning on venturing into commercial sims or maybe dedicating more time to DCS again? Is there anything the community can do, aside from positive support, to help VEAO become more productive? Clearly you gents are still in the business to please us and I believe the vast majority of us are still greatful for that. I would just like to better understand VEAO and your roadmap as well as how you plan to get there.

Sincerley gents, keep up the hard work and I know someday you will get there. I look forward to flying the P-40 in the future and wish you guys the best of luck.

Last edited by robert.clark251; 06-02-2018 at 04:33 AM.
robert.clark251 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 11:33 AM   #2
Ells228
3rd Party Developer
 
Ells228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,356
Send a message via MSN to Ells228
Default

Hi Robert,
Please see my answers below.

Thanks,
Chris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert.clark251 View Post
This thread is really directed toward the VEAO devs and is not at all meant to be a bash fest or turn into one.
If it does I'll close the thread, bashing the team really doesn't help the morale of production very much!!

Quote:
I have read many comments from fellow sim enthusiast who are disappointed in the slow progress of the P-40 and Hawk. At one point I was guilty of slamming you guys because I was one of those frusterated purchasers of the P-40. I sincerley apologize for being that way as I know running a business can take many turns and set backs. I still hold faith in you guys but that leads to the next set of questions which I am hoping you can answer and maybe help the community better understand, if you are in a position to do so.
Pete and I have been pretty vocal about the delay issues we have had with both aircraft and tried to keep the community updated with progress on here and our Facebook page.
We get bashed all of the time for telling the truth about problems we experience, so why should we keep posting and answering all the bashing posts, well we don't.
We just keep ploughing away in the background working out the problems and fixing them.
This is evident in the latest patch for Hawk which fixed a few of the bugs.

Quote:
I believe the frusteration with the community is obviously watching other devs bang out modules while VEAO struggles to complete one and release a second. I will give you guys due credit, there have been patches coming out for the Hawk and I know these modules have not been abandoned.
They have absolutely not been abandoned I can assure you.
I have personally invested over £100,000 in Hawk development over the years so trust me when I say that it will not get abandoned.
P-40F the same.

The issue with Hawk was the original code and the DCS dev at that time. Much has improved with DCS over the past four years and a lot has changed.
To keep up with that the Hawk required a complete re-code, which we posted about last year.
A great portion of the code has been re-written to be more dynamically in-line with DCS development and less buggy.
Most of the core functions are still fully working since the re-code and less are on the priority list, like smoke.
We do encounter bugs still with patches to DCS, this was evident with the sticking on the runway bug. Up until the patch it was fine, patch day it sticks to the runway.
All of the team were like WTF, what's causing that, we didn't change anything.
We can't simply pick up the phone to ED and say, hey guys what's happened, we have to figure it out for ourselves in our code and that takes a lot of time.
This also delays other projects like P-40F because I pull the entire coding team off to figure out the bug.

In terms of current and future dev for the Hawk, I have just completed yesterday all of the complete ASM animation integration into the updated cockpit model and textures.
This has been a monumental task and has taken several months since I received the new 3D model and new PBR textures.
This was partly due to the way the switch and gauge animations were originally done and how I had to bring them into the new model.
Also I had to wait for 2.5 to drop to see how it looks.

I currently have a few people from the community trying out the new cockpit to look at frame rates, functionality and make sure all that should be working, is working.
So far there is a vast improvement, not only to the look of the cockpit but also frame rates, as we expected with the re-work.

Oh one thing to note is that we had clearance to put the parking brake where it should be, so that has changed in the new model. I'll post an update about it and include it in the training missions.

When Pete and I are happy that is it fully working it will come in a patch. No fanfare, just patched and you guys can enjoy it.

This will then bring the visuals in-line with the new PBR standards we are seeing in DCS 2.5.

The re-code is continuing and we are seeing less things breaking with patches, so it must be working.


Quote:
If I remember correctly, at one point it was stated you guys wanted to wait till 2.5 was released so you had a more stable engine to work with. I also remember you taking a second endeavor into the commercial sim world, where Flight Sim World crashed and burned (not yalls fault). I would like to know if you could possibly explain some of the setbacks with DCS and what you guys are doing to push forward.
The setbacks with DCS are really as I've explained with Hawk above and similarly for P-40F.
Pre-patch we have a fully functioning working aircraft, come patch day, engine stops working.
We figured that one out that a parameter that we check for in the sim for atmospheric conditions had changed and essentially the engine was being starved of oxygen.
This is the level of realistic detail in a flight model that most people don't really see.
When something like that changes in core-sim it's a big set back.

With DCS 2.5 we are still seeing some things like this happen; however we do not have to develop for three versions of the sim anymore, just one, so that's a huge strain relief on the coding team.

We understand the frustration that customers have waiting for the product and we are just as frustrated not to have it out the door yet.

In terms of other sims outside of DCS, that's a completely different skill set and different team under BlueSky FS.
The only interchangeable assets are the 3D model and textures.
The ESP engine uses standard arguments for animation, no ASM systems need coding, well very little needs tweaking to the standard xml, and the flight model is completely different.
The way the engine sounds work is vastly different also and although we use the base recordings they are compiled in a vastly different way.
Hence having a separate team and a separate company developing those models.

I can assure you the VEAO DCS coding team haven't touched anything outside of DCS, it's a different skill set.

FSW was a toe-dip into the ESP based marketplace to see if and how our assets could be brought to a wider audience and how the look and fly (could they be as realistic as DCS was my question).
I'm proud of the work the BlueSky team and I did to bring P-40F to FSW, the visuals of the aircraft were on par with DCS and the systems logic was pretty close within ESP engine limits.
It certainly was a first for FSW and an ESP based platform.

I'm personally continuing that journey with P3D v4 right now with the BlueSky team.
Again none of the DCS team are involved, they are working on Hawk and P-40F, they have no interest in the ESP based platforms.

Quote:
Is 2.5 and the newer tech helping with production now? How big is the team at VEAO? Are you still planning on venturing into commercial sims or maybe dedicating more time to DCS again? Is there anything the community can do, aside from positive support, to help VEAO become more productive? Clearly you gents are still in the business to please us and I believe the vast majority of us are still greatful for that. I would just like to better understand VEAO and your roadmap as well as how you plan to get there.
Having one sim as in 2.5, as I said above, is less strain on the team to develop for, rather than multiple versions of DCS.

The entire VEAO team is around 40 but that's everyone that has or is working on modules.
Each aircraft takes a minimum of 8 people to make, more people for more complex aircraft.
Also don't forget this isn't their main job, they all work during the day and work on modules in spare time at night and weekends.
Contrary to popular belief we're not making millions of dollars selling these modules to pay for a big employed full-time team, you can see that in our company accounts which are publicly available.

Right now all aircraft for DCS outside of Hawk and P-40F are on hold, as per our company update.
When P-40F is in your hands during Beta we will re-focus some of the team onto the next project for DCS, BUT only when P-40F is out the door.

At the moment there isn't much that the community can do apart from be patient and yes I know that's hard. Hopefully the updates to Hawk visuals you'll get really soon will help with that.

The next step for P-40F is to sit down with Nick Grey, head of TFC, to fly the module and get his feedback, seeing as he's flown the actual thing.
When he's happy, the module will be released to you.

We've also learnt a lot of lessons from Hawk development, which mistakes will not be repeated with P-40F.

Quote:
Sincerley gents, keep up the hard work and I know someday you will get there. I look forward to flying the P-40 in the future and wish you guys the best of luck.
Many thanks, and thank you for the candid questions which I hope I have answered honestly for you and give an insight into what's going on.

Cheers,
Chris.
Ells228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 01:31 PM   #3
flyingscotsman
Member
 
flyingscotsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Durham, UK originally from Dundee Scotland
Posts: 662
Default

Exactly as I had assumed, problems take time and effort, more effort than some of us realise.
Excellent answer Chris, looking forward to the future. Thank you
flyingscotsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 03:21 PM   #4
zhukov032186
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
Posts: 1,531
Default

Thanks for the look behind the scenes, Ells. Very informative. I enjoy the Hawk, myself, folks raise too much ruckus while nitpicking. Keep crackin' guys, there's an end eventually :p
__________________
Zhukov attacks *FORUM USER* with Legendary Trollsword!
*FORUM USER* Constitution save roll.... Fail!
*FORUM USER* afflicted with ''Hurt Feelz'', -1 Concentration for two rounds
zhukov032186 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 06:23 PM   #5
Jester986
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 634
Default

Chris,
Thank you for your response to op, I look forward to seeing the Hawk completed and your reply eases some anxiety about the module.
Jester986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 07:18 PM   #6
dannyq8
Member
 
dannyq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 270
Default

Great news Chris, sounds good going forwards.

Interesting that you have some community members carrying out functionality testing
__________________
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.
Plato
dannyq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 09:35 PM   #7
Ells228
3rd Party Developer
 
Ells228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,356
Send a message via MSN to Ells228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyq8 View Post
Great news Chris, sounds good going forwards.

Interesting that you have some community members carrying out functionality testing
I did post up on our testers forums mate
Ells228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 03:43 AM   #8
robert.clark251
Member
 
robert.clark251's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 262
Default

Chris,

Thank you so much for the detailed response. It is very much appreciated and I am very happy to hear things are going as you stated.

I am also very happy to hear you guys are looking at P3D V4. I have been using it for about a year and will for sure invest in your aircraft when you bring them to P3D.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. This clears up a lot for me and I think questions others have had. I look forward to a bright future with VEAO and DCS!

Regards
Robert
robert.clark251 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 07:37 AM   #9
Ells228
3rd Party Developer
 
Ells228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,356
Send a message via MSN to Ells228
Default

Cheers Robert, you’re welcome.

Thanks,
Chris.
Ells228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2018, 10:19 AM   #10
Stickshaker
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 66
Default

Thanks for taking the time to for this detailed explanation, Chris, and for your perseverance in dealing with all the setbacks. I hope that you will reap the rewards when the new Hawk and P-40 are out the door, and that the difficulties will be behind you then.
Stickshaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:35 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.