DCS: MiG-23MLA by RAZBAM - Page 108 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-16-2020, 02:49 PM   #1071
Кош
Member
 
Кош's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Киев
Posts: 747
Default

There were photos of ML's from Afghanistan and history books mention orders. 50mm flare rounds for Soviet racks and centrline pylon flare launcher. Iraq used 20-something mm helicopter flare rounds.
__________________
i5-2500k@3,4GHz/8GB 1866/1920x1200'24/VPC T-50 Saitek X-52 throttle Saitek combat rudder
Кош is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 04:41 PM   #1072
EpicBlitzkrieg87
Junior Member
 
EpicBlitzkrieg87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Alcatraz
Posts: 6
Default

Where is this (what's the source)? Could u show text and photographic proof if possible?
__________________
Urraaaa!

Last edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87; 09-16-2020 at 04:46 PM.
EpicBlitzkrieg87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 08:09 AM   #1073
Кош
Member
 
Кош's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Киев
Posts: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicBlitzkrieg87 View Post
Where is this (what's the source)? Could u show text and photographic proof if possible?
Book by Victor Markovsky mentions VP-50 installations on ML, MLA, MLD and even UB going to Afghanistan. Unfortunately all clear photos that I've found are MLD's. But multiple MiG-23ML pilots and technicians on many forums and Razbam discord stated that VP-50-60 launcher rack is bolt-on. MiG-29 flare dispensers are also separate bolt-on device and not part of the airframe btw.
UPD - there are photos of UB with VP-50, which is technically an MF with dual cockpit. So if can mount it on UB which is like really different from MLD, mounting to ML should be no problem at all.
__________________
i5-2500k@3,4GHz/8GB 1866/1920x1200'24/VPC T-50 Saitek X-52 throttle Saitek combat rudder

Last edited by Кош; 09-17-2020 at 08:15 AM.
Кош is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 06:26 AM   #1074
pepin1234
Veteran
 
pepin1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,061
Default



Picture: Mig-23ML from one of the F-1 onboard camera in that combat, Taken from a Cuban Military magazine.

Real Story in Spanish about an unsuccessful ambush made by 3 F-1 against a single Mig-23ML. Angola war:

¡Cuidado, son tres!

Artículo de Maikel Mederos Fiallo.

El 25 de febrero de 1988, alrededor de las 17:35 horas, el piloto de tercera, capitán Orlando Carbó, cumple una misión de cobertura al sureste de Cuito en el MiG-23ML matrícula 476. Su navegante en tierra, el primer teniente Ricardo López Castillo, le informa de la presencia en la zona de un Mirage F1 sudafricano.
– 877, tome rumbo 90 grados. ¡Máxima velocidad!
– Enterado, rumbo 90 – respondió con rapidez Carbó.
– 77, el objetivo está delante de Ud., distancia 25 km, 30 grados a su izquierda y debajo.
La tensión del piloto aumentaba con la creciente velocidad de acercamiento, mientras sus ojos peinaban la pantalla de su radar.
– ¿Este radar estará ciego? – pensó el piloto. El velocímetro llegaba a 1 100 km/h. Su mano derecha, sin quejarse, aplicaba mayor fuerza sobre el bastón de mando.
– 877, objetivo 5 grados a su izquierda, distancia 12 km…
– ¿Qué altura más o menos? – preguntó el piloto.
Su voz sonó como un latigazo de decisión que daba confianza al navegante López Castillo quien oprimió de nuevo el micrófono de su equipo e indicó:
– 77, busque el objetivo por debajo, aumente la velocidad.
No hubo respuesta.
– Lo perdí, lo perdí, delante de usted. Búscalo a la izquierda 5 grados.
– 877 ¡En captura!... – apareció en su radar el objetivo aéreo.
Hasta ese momento habían transcurrido 2 minutos y 29 segundos.
– ¡Correcto!
– Completamente de frente – dijo el piloto.
– Distancia 8 km – indicó el navegante.
– ¡Se cayó la captura! – se lamentó el piloto.
Interferencias activas nublan la pantalla del radar.
– Distancia 7 – el piloto no oyó ni contestó nada.
– De frente completamente, 3 km. Búsquelo por debajo. Coge pa´ abajo trancando – se alteró el tono de voz de Castillo.
– ¿Pa´ qué rumbo? – preguntó Carbó con desconcierto.
– ¡Tranca por la izquierda pa´… curso 280!
– 280 grados por la izquierda.
Carbó se apresta para entablar combate.
– Delante de usted, distancia 9… Distancia 7, es una pareja, delante de usted, ahí abajo – se acercaba con rapidez – De frente completamente. ¡Cuidado que están trancando! ¡Cuidado!, de frente dos… – le pasó por debajo.
– ¿Dime?... ¿dime?... ¿dónde?... ¡a la vista, voy pa´ bajo!
– ¿Lo tienes? – preguntó Castillo.
– Correcto, son dos – respondió Carbó.
– Correcto, mete caña, no te dejes coger.
Momentáneamente los perdió y Castillo le informó que los tenía detrás. Lanzó el tanque auxiliar de combustible y descendió con brusquedad su altura girando en espiral. El combate se desarrollaba a alturas entre 200 – 1 000 metros.
Efectivamente, por encima y por detrás se acercan a alta velocidad dos cazas Mirages F1: el MiG-23 ha caído en una emboscada. El primer avión solitario era un señuelo para atraer a Carbó.
Al instante escucha la voz de su navegante que le informa sobresaltado:
– ¡Cuidado, son tres, son tres!
Un macabro carrusel aéreo se entabla en el cielo: de un lado el MiG-23 secundado desde tierra por López Castillo y del otro las tres máquinas sudafricanas empeñadas en coger la cola del solitario MiG. En pocos instantes se entremezclan la emoción con el aplomo, la valentía con la sagacidad y entre giros y banqueos, trepadas y picadas se oye la voz de Castillo que más que hablar grita:
– ¡Dale tú, coño! – Resuena en el intercomunicador del piloto – ¡Métele caña, tienes que tumbarlo! ¡No te dejes coger la cola!...
El avión líder enemigo lanzó un cohete desde el ala de su F1. Con un brusco tirón del bastón de mando Carbó evadió el cohete cuando este se encontraba próximo al impacto. El segundo disparo de “Kukri” se efectuó teniendo una diferencia de 30 grados desde la semiesfera frontal, este se desvió de su trayectoria de vuelo e impactó contra tierra. El tercer y último disparo lo recibió desde la semiesfera trasera y sintió sobre la cola de su avión una fuerte sacudida, provocada por la onda expansiva.
En tierra de detectarían se detectaron tres pequeñas partículas metálicas que agujerearon los timones con diámetro del tamaño de un centavo.
Los minutos pasan a velocidad supersónica y el capitán Carbó amenaza con derribar a uno de sus atacantes. Cambió la posición de sus alas para el ángulo de 72 grados y emprendió la salida del “carrusel de la muerte”. El combate había durado 6 minutos y 15 segundos con el régimen de trabajo del motor al máximo y postcombustión conectada.
El piloto Orlando Carbó todavía tiene motivos para seguir preocupado, su avión ha consumido demasiado combustible en el lance aéreo, tiene dudas de que alcance para llegar a la base de Menongue, pero con la misma seguridad con que le indicara en el combate, el navegante López Castillo, tras determinar cálculos para altura y velocidad le dice que se puede llegar a la base y que el aterrizaje será allí.
En Menongue todos están a la espera, los ojos buscan un punto que no aparece en el cielo. Ya en las cercanías del aeropuerto, Ricardo López cede la conducción a sus colegas y espera, también con ansiedad la llegada del MiG.
– ¡Allí está! – son varias las voces de quienes ven la diminuta figura del avión que se aproxima bajito, arrebatando al tiempo cada metro de un combustible que se acaba y con este la vida del motor. Las ruedas se posan en la dura rampa, el paracaídas de frenado se extiende y ya al final de la carrera, cuando el avión va a girar en 180 grados para dirigirse a su nicho, el motor se apaga en medio del asombro general.
Carbó retira su mano del bastón, se seca el sudor de la cara con la manga del overall. Entonces, una amplia sonrisa aparece en su rostro.
Un saludo para todos.
__________________
pepin1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 10:34 AM   #1075
EpicBlitzkrieg87
Junior Member
 
EpicBlitzkrieg87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Alcatraz
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Кош View Post
Book by Victor Markovsky mentions VP-50 installations on ML, MLA, MLD and even UB going to Afghanistan. Unfortunately all clear photos that I've found are MLD's. But multiple MiG-23ML pilots and technicians on many forums and Razbam discord stated that VP-50-60 launcher rack is bolt-on. MiG-29 flare dispensers are also separate bolt-on device and not part of the airframe btw.
UPD - there are photos of UB with VP-50, which is technically an MF with dual cockpit. So if can mount it on UB which is like really different from MLD, mounting to ML should be no problem at all.
Thank you!! I'll definitely check that out. It's very interesting that that the ML and MLA also had this retrofit. I had a heated debate with a person over whether the MLA could in fact load BVP-50-60s or not, I appreciate this information.

What's the name of the book if I may ask? I'd really like to read it.
__________________
Urraaaa!

Last edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87; 09-20-2020 at 10:37 AM.
EpicBlitzkrieg87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 03:52 PM   #1076
Fri13
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koty View Post
But this more/less sensitive in the end does not matter. What matters is the end result, that being range. Where they are more or less equal, with slight advantage when it comes to the ML.

But here's the catch - electronic warfare exists. And more powerful radar is always an advantage. Until you get down low, where the radar power becomes a hindrance - because you need to filter out all the noise you get reflecting from the ground. Even then you can find the enemy on N003 with enough time before your missiles get in range.
One of the advantages is as well counter-jamming. When the jammer can't send a signal that overpowers yours, you will get advantage. But as you say, there comes disadvantages as well.

Quote:
As for GCI, it's a situational awareness thing. No, GCI will not be able to tell your enemy's energy state from the radar screen. Nor would the poor guy there be able to communicate to you quickly enough. This is the reason why even the "merge" exists. Did you know radars do not have infinite resolution? At some point, speaking about older radars, the "blips" of you and the target will merge on the screen, to the point where you cannot tell them apart. That is the "merge". More modern radars will still be able to recognize and display two separate targets, but the refresh rate and the spacing (or lack there of) will prevent the GCI from giving you any meaningful inputs.
And that is exactly the thing here, it is different to try to track something from 600 km than from a 100 km. You have a different resolutions and different capabilities with EW and tracking radars than airborne radars. EW radars resolutions can be in couple hundred meters, not enough for weapons grade targeting but enough for even a dog fight, and tracking radars gives even better idea. As dog fight is not that you swirl around each other's in 100-300 meters from each others, you really are 1-4 kilometers from each others, especially when you have no eyes to multiple threats. And you get to know target speed, altitude and vector so you will know your tracked target energy state if you follow the combat in your mind.

The idea that GCI can't see what is happening 2-3 km around you as you are "merged" is just....
__________________
i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
Fri13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 09:05 PM   #1077
AeriaGloria
Veteran
 
AeriaGloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LA
Posts: 3,263
Default

None of that necessarily means the GCI is telling you the energy state of your opponent
AeriaGloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 12:11 PM   #1078
EpicBlitzkrieg87
Junior Member
 
EpicBlitzkrieg87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Alcatraz
Posts: 6
Default

Thought I'd share some beautiful shots (they're of MiG-23Ms though)


__________________
Urraaaa!
EpicBlitzkrieg87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2020, 04:50 PM   #1079
nsf_zx
Junior Member
 
nsf_zx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: hell
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
And that is exactly the thing here, it is different to try to track something from 600 km than from a 100 km. You have a different resolutions and different capabilities with EW and tracking radars than airborne radars. EW radars resolutions can be in couple hundred meters, not enough for weapons grade targeting but enough for even a dog fight, and tracking radars gives even better idea. As dog fight is not that you swirl around each other's in 100-300 meters from each others, you really are 1-4 kilometers from each others, especially when you have no eyes to multiple threats. And you get to know target speed, altitude and vector so you will know your tracked target energy state if you follow the combat in your mind.

The idea that GCI can't see what is happening 2-3 km around you as you are "merged" is just....
CGI is not a radar... its a system: a system of radars of distinct characteristics, computers, comand centers... etc etc etc, and i dont know the bands in wich operate an modern (or older) cgi radar systems... but i think they can se more than a couple of km in resolution (they have an really strategic role and i think they have betther radars than the counter baterys have... or the guidance radars in the long range anty air bateries) even the airports can measure the distances between aicrafts of very diferent sices (i think diferenc resolution at diferent disctances and targuets... so the theme is more complex)

I think you are thinking dogfigth as an bvr engagement... if you are pursing someone about 7km... and you got somemebody at your 3 chasing you.... you think your radar is going to show you this threat?? you can manage both thread at a time??? sure??? pulling 7g behind someone and loking the thread at your 3?... and if you can do this... how much longuer is that situation?1/4 of a second? the guy in your 3 are behind you with the wingnam of the guy you pursuit and your radar is showing this too????
and... wen you are pursuing the guy at 7km and 7g, in what radar mode you are using?
i tell you... if you can see in your radar the guy at your 3... and the guy you got rigth behind... is command and control who is showing you (cgi, awacs, or the name you want to give them)
nsf_zx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:01 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.