MK-20 vs CBU-99 and Tank Busting

Enjoyed the conversation fellas. Pretty interesting seeing pics of the UXO. Sounds like it should be more effectively modeled than it currently is. I’ve found them to be totally worthless against tanks in DCS. I haven’t checked yet, but are you able to or will you be able to adjust the burst height (HOF) in the F/A-18 like you can in the A-10 inv?

LOL who cares, you arm chair folks trying to be all morale about a weapon system that is designed to kill. Yet your flying what simulator with a passion........:doh:

There is a difference between playing a game and just being ignorant about real life facts. :doh:

On my tests, the Mk20 can destroy a T-72 and lessor armor in one hit. If not direct, it will get the damage bar in the red. The CBU99 doesn't hurt tanks but will destroy a BTR 80 and lessor vehicles.

I tested with AI doing the bombing since the F-18 aiming is off with these bombs at this time (bug), but is perfect for the mk84s and 82s.

I notice in DCS that bomb don't do hit damage as in an unarmed lump of concrete and steel doing 600 knots as it lands on a vehicle type damage. There is only blast volume.

So you think a pair of Rockeyes are 500 bomblets in a smallish area have a good chance to hit a tank like a WWII Bazooka. MK118 190mm penetration, M6 Bazooka 100mm, but worse than RPG-7 260mm.

But in DCS there is not 247 bomblets per bomb but less meaning even if hit damage was applied chances are much lower than real weapon due to reduced submunition count.

I was unsuccessful in finding real pictures of descriptions of terminal effects on armored vehicles for direct hit.

Which isn't relevant to civilians, if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....

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Stupidest comment i have seen in a long time.

Keep moving, there is no intelligence to see here

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Which isn't relevant to civilians, if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....

 

Also modern CBU bomblets are designed to automatically detonate after a set delay so that they don't remain a threat.

 

It only seems to be an issue with old ones that are deliberately used against civilians that's the problem, kind of like the argument it's not the gun that kills but the gun nut wielding it.

It also sucks if you are an occupying force a decade later and you set up an OP and realize their these weird little plastic baseball sized objects laying around everywhere. Then you realize you are surrounded by unexploded cluster bombs. And no, they don't automatically detonate after a delay. So you pack up your shit and lightly tread from the area.

In real life I was Engineer soldier who did both mechanical and manual mine clearing and educated both in military and civilian/humanitarian mine clearing both with knife and metal detector, and mine flail ect ect.

( i did 3x6 month missions in kosovo ( a country to the right of italy, and north of greece somewhere if you try to find it on a map )

Regarding bomblets from a clusterbomb, then i thought i add a little info.

Bomblets that are inside of cluster bombs always leave behind uxo's.

An uxo is by the way the term for unexploded ordenance.

This could be everything form a hand grenade, missiles, bombs, mortars that did not explode that people find. ect ect.

I cannot remember how many bomblets/small bombs there are in each cbu anymore but what happen is they drop it over an area to kill something, but many of them miss the target and land without exploding.

The cbu is a very effective weapon, but unfortunatly there are many of the bomblets that do not explode and just land on the ground and remain dangerous both during and after a conflict.

With other words the bomblets become touch sensitive and more or less work like landmines in the area where they where dropped.

That is why many nations have banned the usage of CBU's, since after the war they lay there like landmines and its slow and expensive to remove them.

Now a days there are "rules of war" and when you drop a cbu, or lay out mine fields then you have to register the location, so that such information can be exchanged after the war so the areas can be clearned up or marked so people dont get hurt.

Even if marked then it can be difficult to find and remove various kind of mines.. Some example can float with water, and example in kosovo there are small "ishocky pucks ( round things ) that float with water and there for can travel far away.

And example in Denmark the mines buried by the Germans during ww2 are below sand and the sand blow arround and cover and uncover mines now and then.

In war time there are different kind of ways to scare and direct the enemy in an direction that you want, and even to use landmines as physological weapon.. Or actual you can make a fake minefield and cheat the enemy believing they found a mine field.. this will stop the enemy and slow them down.. so it can be used in many different kind of ways.

example if a soldier loose a leg and the other soldiers experience this it will damage moral and they become scared and less effective... and if a general hear the enemy have layed mines then he might select another route and could be part of the enemys plan to lure them into a killzone somewhere.

CBU's if spotted in a zone will typical make the enemy select another route or send in the mine flail to clear a road so you can pass though.

OR if we just are talking infantry an Engineer with a mine detector can walk in front and mark a path though... but will typical be faster to just walk 500m in another direction and find a new path.

Typical the indications of cluster ammonition being in an area are that you find some alluminium pieces laying on the ground. They use these inside of the cbu to keep the correct distance inbetween the bomblets when they are released.

By the way if you pickup a bomblet it might explode in your hand, so they when they are found they are detonated without touchging them, but either making a directed explotion with a tiny bit of explosives aimed as the bomblet, or you can lay c4 next to it and detonate.

Alternative if you can see them from a distance you can shoot them with example an "12,7 sniper rifle".. by the way some times in the morning you can via thermal vision and such a sniper actual spot landmines burried below ground and shoot them becourse of the temperature difference of the ground above, and the mine below ground... ( or make a map of where mines are located. ).

As you can imagine it take a long time to find and do this since the bomblets get covered with grass or are 20cm down in the ground.

you can do this manual, or send in a mine flail.

it cost about 7000usd pr hour to send in the mine flail and it can clear an area of 400-500m with a with of 4m.

So not excactly fast, but it get the job done and you can farm the area afterwards.

A mine flail either detonate the bomblet/mine or it rip the shit appart so it dosent work anymore.

Bomblets are by the way not a favorite of mine flail drivers since technical speaking a bomblet can be throw up into the air and risk of falling down on top of the drivers cabin... however i think its very unlikely this will happen.

Well all in all I support banning the usage of CBU's, it is an effective weapon but an absolute nightmare after a conflict end.

Think of it as everytime you use one, you create a minefield that need to be cleared.

That was some detailed info delevero, thanks for sharing!

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Wow, what a cruel man you are. if your 4-5 year old son or daughter loses half of his/her tiny body by a bomb thats been dropped 50 years ago in a war that child couldnt possibly know anything about,

I beg you please engrave that quote on their grave stone to remind people of your impeccable logic.

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Let's not forget that overall, warfare is a very horrible thing. And in conventional conflict, civilians will suffer just as much as the belligerent combatants. This is unavoidable and generally considered "Collateral Damage." This is why most nations strategy for dealing with large urban areas is to either lay siege, or encircle and bypass. The cost of life lost in the fight for a major urban center in terms of combatants lost AND civilians generally makes no one want to deal with it. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze. There are obviously some exceptions, cities with major ports, major airfields, so on.

However, the issue with cluster munitions UXO is a huge problem, and no one really denies it. In many combat zones today, the use of a cluster munition is heavily regulated. There has to be a target that A) Warrants the use. B)The use of the weapon outweighs the possible collateral damage. and C) Is not going to create large problems for friendly forces that are in or are going to enter the area.

When I was in Afghanistan, if we wanted to call in an airstrike for let's say.. A Mk 82, we had to ensure there was no civilians within damn near a kilometer. Now, this is heavily reliant on ROEs. In the opening days of the Gulf War, Iraqi Freedom, and Enduring Freedom. Large portions of the country was considered a "free fire zone" This allows a belligerent to basically use whatever weapon they want, whenever they want, in whatever manner they choose. Generally this creates a massive humanitarian issue in the area, especially when dealing with COIN Operations.

As far as the overall humanitarian effect of large scale conflict, that remains an unavoidable byproduct. With most nations doing what they can to mitigate, the advent of smart weapons, better training, and much higher accountability for their soldiers actions. The US also is pretty good at advancing doctors, mine sweepers, EOD, and other support organizations behind the front line to deal with civilian issues as rapidly as possible. Find the UXO faster, preventing it being lost to time.