My two cents on F-16 Turn Rate and the EM Diagrams

Just an FYI to those currently testing the sustained and instant turn-rate of the viper, the drag index values in the HAF performance supplement for best performance are using a drag-index of 0 and a 22k pound jet (about 20% fuel). If you aren't testing like that, you won't get similar performance at all. Even just having missiles on the tip rails gives you a drag-index of 7, and it goes up really really quickly when you start hanging any pylons on there. The DCS viper does indeed seem to come pretty close to published data when using the right numbers to test turn performance.

Reading EM diagrams isn't very intuitive either, it's not as straight forward as it seems. For those who think you should be able to "fight at 9Gs" -- that is a very fleeting moment. If you look at the published 9G line on the dog-house, you'll see that the Ps values are significantly negative and very far from the Ps=0 lines.

That being said, I'm not a viper pilot, but I am a USAF pilot and I have a relatively decent grasp of this stuff. Are there problems with the DCS viper flight model? Yes, particularly when it comes to thrust (under-powered), and this is observed by high time viper instructors who, obviously, really know their vipers -- so let's hope that the viper flight model in DCS is still WIP and they are continuing to take input from their SMEs.

There's also been a lot of talk about the viper vs hornet flight models. Should the Hornet be able to out-perform the Viper in a rate fight? Obviously not -- but the Hornet also gets a vote, and doesn't have to fight that fight. It does seem like the hornet is over-powered, or more likely the viper is under-powered currently, but maybe that will change. I'd be curious to see how people are dying to hornets in DCS -- I bet a lot of times it isn't because they are out-performed, but because they are falling victim to a BFM game plan.

I don't want this thread to fall apart into something that gets closed by admins, but I thought it was important to talk about people's expectations in the viper vs what the charts say we can do (and the importance of knowing how to read those charts).

Lastly, can someone turn up the position lights on the tanker?

Dances

I agree that the Hornet is overpowered in rate fights. Also Viper pilots in DCS cannot max perform the jet because of the unrealistic G-effects in DCS right now.

"unrealistic g effects" is a bit relative. If I pulled 5 GS smoothly right now IRL, I'd probably pass out. To get a true sense of the flight model, fly with G effects turned off in sim. I'm sure it's something being looked at globally.

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Just an FYI to those currently testing the sustained and instant turn-rate of the viper, the drag index values in the HAF performance supplement for best performance are using a drag-index of 0 and a 22k pound jet (about 20% fuel). If you aren't testing like that, you won't get similar performance at all. Even just having missiles on the tip rails gives you a drag-index of 7, and it goes up really really quickly when you start hanging any pylons on there. The DCS viper does indeed seem to come pretty close to published data when using the right numbers to test turn performance.

You do realize there are performance graphs for 50% fuel and DI = 50 (i.e. 4x AIM120's + 2x AIM-9's + 2x fuel tank pylons + 1 centerline pylon) right ?

Hence most testing is done following the normal A2A load out above at 26,000 lbs.

Hummingbird,

I do calculate drag index values and use the chart for what I'm doing; but I suspect most testers do not. The data that DCS has put out is using that best case scenario, lightest, cleanest jet... and I think people expect to see that kind of performance all the time.

Dances

The more I've tested the the Gex warmup, the more my mind is changed that the g tolerences are ok. The F-16 does need to change a bit in the sense that It needs to allow for a more sustained 9g pull without blacking out within 3 seconds. However as pointed out above your 9g threshold is small and with an actual combat load or observed Bingo fuel state, is not likely to actually appear.

To the point of the OP, just a quick rough guesstimate revrals, 22% fuel is like ~1600 lbs of gas. So not really the fuel state you want to be in when starting a bout of BFM/ACM when you're still miles from home or a tanker. In reality you would.have Bingo'd out well before that. So.i.think you're right, a level headed approach as to managing expectations vs reality is always healthy.

There's also been a lot of talk about the viper vs hornet flight models. Should the Hornet be able to out-perform the Viper in a rate fight? Obviously not -- but the Hornet also gets a vote, and doesn't have to fight that fight. It does seem like the hornet is over-powered, or more likely the viper is under-powered currently, but maybe that will change. I'd be curious to see how people are dying to hornets in DCS -- I bet a lot of times it isn't because they are out-performed, but because they are falling victim to a BFM game plan.

We had a training with 4 groups (each 1 hornet, 1 viper) this week for about an hour of good dogfighting.

hornets had pylons on, vipers were clean. both planes had full internal fuel. fight ended at 2000lbs for vipers (at which point the hornets were at about 4500 lbs or so) the skill level was completely mixed, and even when the hornets went for HUD BFM and 2 circles, there was not a single time that the viper had anything on it.

From the feeling would have also said that the engine is too weak at the moment (though I must say that I have most experience with block52 models). But hey, I'll try to collect the diagrams and see .. if you have anything you can share, I'd be happy about something to test against.

Hey deadpool, I agree the F16 currently feels a bit under powered. I do think that most people, myself included, can tend to over look our BFM errors and chalk things up to some known inaccuracy in the simulation. I bet we could go through the TV of your sortie and see where and how you could have changed your fight in order to drive toward a victory.

I'd say some of the most common BFM errors are

1. Incorrect Airspeed at TCE.

2. Failure to identify winning or losing cues.

3. Failure to identify attack cues.

4. Failure to properly repo.

5. Incorrect execution of turn reversal.

I'd say these are my top 5. These are just a few. But they are ones I observe a lot. These have nothing to do with a specific jet, they affect all jets equally. Do any of these, more than another guy and you're going to see some poor results.

F-16 specific, My top 3 would be:

1. Failure to maintain TCE Airspeed.

2. Failure to achieve/exceed limiter pull.

3. Opening the turn circle due to high thrust.

Hey 000rick000,

I am absolutely willing to admit that I am not a BFM expert. I was only one F-16 that day, and we had some with experience with a lot of BFM in that other sim.

I have a cockpit video recording of my fights and a tacview and am up to learn something.

I'll send you a PM about maybe having a look at them together.

The matter of fact is that the hornet pilots were at the same skill level, some never having shown any BFM interest in before. And yet the overall picture was not as deciding as I had thought.

I think the hornet lends itself to success in BFM for people who don't have much BFM training. The ability to point the nose at low speed is huge; and it is easy to do. In a viper, you are more maneuverable, but you have to fly the jet by the numbers to the control zone, and not pull the bandit to the HUD until you have attack cues, including a speed advantage (rule of 3s).

I've been doing a lot of viper v viper fighting in DCS lately, I'd love to set up perch and butterfly sets against a hornet pilot to see what can be learned.

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In the viper, doing a viper v hornet fight, you also have to be ready for the hornet to break into you durring your repo, triggering a scissors.... If you don't know how to use your thrust to exit the scissors, you end up falling to the hornet.

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I believe there is a warning in the 3-3 that talks about fighting superior AoA adversaries. So.there is much to be said about "know thine enemy" when it comes to air combat.

There is also something to be said about the absence of the element of mortal Risk within a simulation vs RL. Meaning that unless you are training and fighting with others who share the same goals and objectives (in this case a realistic employment of BFM/ACM) then you'll find that people will do almost anything at times in order to come out victorious, including that which would never be done in reality (because for us it's only a game) because it's far too risky. So it's important to recognize that there is going to be an element of gamesmanship because there's no mortal risk or consequence for failed execution.

If you.can find a group that shares your same goals for.the sim it makes all the difference. It will ensure that you are all on the same page regarding execution. Outside of that you may find that guys will exploit the sim to achieve victory. An example of this that comes to mind is AoA limiter paddle switch use in the hornet. AFAIK this is restricted for use in the real jet.

Right....people do stuff that would leave them total sitting ducks to an unseen and unknown hostile supporting bandit, which you always have to assume is out there.

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Doesn't matter what you do in the Viper if the Hornet pilot knows his plane, as the DCS Hornet currently out rates the DCS Viper in both ITR and STR across the speed range. So it's a losing battle what'ever you do assuming equal pilots.

Hummingbird, what configuration? Clean only? (Which is unlikely scenario to ever meet one) unless you're in JDF server I suppose.

In the viper, doing a viper v hornet fight, you also have to be ready for the hornet to break into you durring your repo, triggering a scissors.... If you don't know how to use your thrust to exit the scissors, you end up falling to the hornet.

 

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I can only speak for the Dogfights that I was a part of, and that hornet was extremely kind to me, as I said.

No fancy maneuvers, more or less putting the lift vector on me and following me in a 2 Circle.

Hummingbird, what configuration? Clean only? (Which is unlikely scenario to ever meet one) unless you're in JDF server I suppose.

Same load outs for both, clean full or 50% fuel, or both with + 6x AAMs.

Sounds like Viper bros should not let viper pilots fight the hornet alone. ACM for the win, "2 press, viper 1 fox-2"

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Those are depressing numbers in relation to hornet performance. We just need to fly a good jet and survive long enough for our wingmen to save us. That, or only fly against hornets with 2 bags, lol.

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Sounds like Viper bros should not let viper pilots fight the hornet alone. ACM for the win, "2 press, viper 1 fox-2"

 

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Yeah, I was talking about 1v1 gun BFM.

Those are depressing numbers in relation to hornet performance. We just need to fly a good jet and survive long enough for our wingmen to save us. That, or only fly against hornets with 2 bags, lol.

 

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what you can always do that the hornet can't easily do is not get your speed low, fire at it with missiles and run with M1.5 (even with bags on)

But I am not sure if that's what the F-16 was/is known for .. for running away.

What I've been told by a military pilot with over 5000 hours in the Viper about the DCS F-16:

Yes, the Hornet is overperforming in rate fights. His opinion was that the F-16 FM is the best he's seen on the PC (better than BMS, too).

Yes, the blackout onset is too quick.

Fwiw...

Hi Gavagai!

What I've been told by a military pilot with over 5000 hours in the Viper about the DCS F-16:

Yes, the Hornet is overperforming in rate fights. His opinion was that the F-16 FM is the best he's seen on the PC (better than BMS, too).

Yes, the blackout onset is too quick.

Fwiw...

You should ask him if he noticed that, when established in constant roll, releasing stick action stops instantaneously the roll motion with no inertia just like if roll rate was countered by FLCS ...

Ask him also to fly inverted and switch in landing gain, see what happens ...

Ask him about the roll rate in CATIII ...

... etc ... and more ...

Your pilot is typical to some friends of mine (with the same amount of flight hours) who didn't noticed that the M2000 they were flying in my sim were just a skin over an F-16 FLCS.

I am jet pilot too ... (not F-16 though) be careful with pilot's feedback. ;)

FM evaluation is not just about a feeling. It is about figures and specific behavior/functions.

Please refer to that discussion: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4384854#post4384854

Just for the little story:

 

Some years ago, I've asked two of my best friends dinning at home, one is an M2000D pilot (one of them on the pic), the other one is M2000N (former AJet demonstrator now now in the French Patrouille de France, both are of course very experienced on M2000).

 

They are not really practicing PC flight simulation except in the past, wen we were young cadets, on LockOn flying upside down passing below the bridges just for the fun. I've asked them to fly a Mirage2000 in "another sim" seated in a SimPit with a HOTAS Cougar. I asked about their feeling/feedback about the way "it fly".

 

They both said: "Woaowhhh ... Amazing! ... this is really accurate!"

 

I didn't told them everything. I have actually conducted a test with them:

They didn't realized that they were flying an F-16 FLCS with just a M2000 3D cockpit.

 

I let you make your own conclusions.

 

Mine is: Asking a RL pilot for his feedback is not necessarily consistent if he is not doing it with a strong analytic method.

 

So, working with RL pilot can be a precious help and a huge potential feedback ... if ... only if, they in the right process and knows what and how to analyze.

In some cases (experienced also) they can be even wrong about figures ... and subjective feedback can be counterproductive.

 

So "it has been validated by RL pilots" ... basically, it can means anything and everything.

To my personal experience of the dev, the best combination is: engineer, mathematicians, pilot, and when you have a coder who is the four at the same time, it is even better.

 

Cheers!

There is still some work to do on that F-16, stuff to correct and fix, especially on FLCS. No need to be a 5000H F-16 to know/see it.

Do not fall into any kind of authority bias. Anybody, including RL F-16 pilots can mistaken or miss some points. Approach has to be scientific to be valid.

Kind regards.

Hi Gavagai!

 

 

 

You should ask him if he noticed that, when established in constant roll, releasing stick action stops instantaneously the roll motion with no inertial just like if roll rate was countered by FLCS ...

Ask him also to fly inverted and switch in landing gain, see what happens ...

Ask him about the roll rate in CATIII ...

... etc ... and more ...

 

Your pilot is typical to some friends of mine (with the same amount of flight hours) who didn't noticed that the M2000 they were flying in my sim were just a skin over an F-16 FLCS.

 

I am jet pilot too ... (not F-16 though) be careful with pilot's feedback. ;)

FM evaluation in not just about a feeling. It is about figures and specific behavior/functions.

 

Please refer to that discussion: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4384854#post4384854

 

 

 

 

There is still some work to do on that F-16, stuff to correct and fix, especially on FLCS. No need to be a 5000H F-16 to know/see it.

Do not fall into any kind of authority bias. Anybody, including RL F-16 pilots can mistaken or miss some points. Approach has to be scientific to be valid.

 

 

Kind regards.

Thanks

Really cool to see a mature discussion on this stuff guys. It's much appreciated.

Going back to the viper v hornet fight, Deadpool, I don't do any gun only BFM stuff. I take all valid fox-2 shots (we fly with invulnerability on for training), and then call TERMINATE when one guy does land gun shots, the fight is stalemated on the floor, or we hit bingo. Firing the fox-2 gives us practice with switchology offensively, and with IRMD on defense.

Running away isn't really an option once anchored, because you then open yourself up to a missile WEZ. Same reason BFM isn't flown at speeds above 450 knots, your turn circle gets soooo big, you risk the missile WEZ.

So, now that we know the hornet is capable of more EM than it should be, we should just treat it like a more maneuverable fighter. In the current viper 3-3 there are gameplans for fighting more maneuverable aircraft. It isn't necessarily survivable if they see what you are up to.... But that's part of the enemy getting a vote. I think most DCS pilots would fall for the gameplan though (in my experience).

So...... To defeat hornets in BFM, think to yourself.... How can I fly my jet to get a higher turn rate than my opponent (who has a higher turn rate than I do in a level turn)?

Press!

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