[NO BUG] RWR warning when wingman locked - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-21-2019, 06:15 AM   #1
Nansaram
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Default [NO BUG] RWR warning when wingman locked

In single play, with 3 AI wingmans, I commanded engage bogey, AI wingman2 chasing enemy and it was locked by SAM, and soon SAM missile launched,
but strangely, my RWR also sound warning even locking and missile launch warning. At that time my wingman2 and I were apart from about more than 10 miles even I was not on the same SAM radar lock line and only wingman2 was in the SAM site, with tackview review.

Last edited by IronMike; 10-22-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:54 PM   #2
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Might want to dive into this thread. Heatblur developers answer and explain how the RWR code works.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=237416
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Old 10-22-2019, 01:10 AM   #3
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I believe this is a DCS bug that is over a year old now:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221983

I have had the RWR give me both lock and launch warnings while sitting on the ramp on various servers when the nearest enemy aircraft were 200 nm away (for example, the "through the inferno" server which tells you precisely where the nearest enemy aircraft are every minute or so).
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:59 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPK View Post
I believe this is a DCS bug that is over a year old now:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221983

I have had the RWR give me both lock and launch warnings while sitting on the ramp on various servers when the nearest enemy aircraft were 200 nm away (for example, the "through the inferno" server which tells you precisely where the nearest enemy aircraft are every minute or so).

We should have eliminated most of the part that is mentioned in the other thread on our side, however the RWR is not selective to who gets locked if a beam hits the antennas. That you get an RWR warning when your wingman gets locked, even in a lose formation, is 100% correct.

A short summery of the difference between our RWR and the default RWR (like found in the F15), could be put like this (quoted from Grover):

The procedures/logic:

- Four sensors/antennas for the radar bands of tracking radars and airborne radars.

- Each antenna FOV is ~180° (or slightly more), and almost a perfect cone.

- The sensitivity at the edges of the cone is significantly lower than in the centre.

- When we get a message from DCS about being radiated, we simulate the signal it produces in each sensor. This includes factors such as the distance from the emitter (attenuation), the angle of arrival for each antenna, noise and other random signal amplitude fluctuations.

- From this moment we treat the signal as if we didn't know about the true parameters of the emitter and we only use the information from the emulated sensors (the previous step).

- We take the amplitude of the signal from each sensor, apply signal to noise cuts, combine and reconstruct the threat direction.

- Then, the reconstructed direction together with the signal signature is compared with the list of threats already being displayed. If we find one that correlates, we update its direction. Otherwise, we create a new threat and inform about it with the 'new guy' sound.


Some consequences of the procedure described above and other features:

- No blind spots. However, if directly above or below, the threat has to be significantly closer (compared to the horizontal plane) to pass the SNR threshold.

- The direction is reconstructed in the 2D plane (the local aircraft frame of reference). For threats significantly outside that plane, their reconstructed direction may be inaccurate, and it usually shifts towards the 12, 3, 6, or 9 o'clock from the true position.

- The direction reconstruction accuracy improves as the distance from the emitter decreases. For the scan modes of the emitter (RWS/TWS), it's somewhere around 10-15° RMS.

- For the emitters in scan modes, a misassociation of a known-threat with a new signal can happen, and it occurs quite often, especially at long ranges.



It can result in:



a) ghosts (fake threats) appearing on the display - more probable if you or the threat do some manoeuvres;

b) merging a group of two or more threats of the same type into one threat. For example, a group of two Su-27 flying in close formation, both scanning with their radars, can appear on the screen as one '29' until they get closer.

- A malfunction/damage of one antenna/sensor doesn't make you completely blind in that direction, as the two adjacent antennas should still cover that area. However, the lack of that sensor makes the direction reconstruction procedure very innacurate, and it's very likely that some threats will be displaced by more than 90°.


In short:

- An entirely new dedicated code, written from the grounds up.

- Antenna/electronics emulation.

- Threat reconstruction using the emulated signals.

- Enhance information obtained from the engine with more details (radar modes, missile guidance, noise etc.).

- No blind spots.

- Imperfect like a real device should be, and not a god's eye.

a) Some weak radars can appear late.

b) The directions will be inaccurate.

c) It will be harder to estimate the number of threats of one type when they form a group.

d) You'll receive launch warnings not only when you are the target of the missile. For example when flying in a close formation with your buddy; if an enemy launches a weapon such as AIM-7 or SA-6 at your buddy, you may receive a launch warning from that threat as well.

- Detailed failures/damages.


Thanks to Grover for the write up and I hope it helps to get a better idea of our RWR.

PS: Another thing to consider with the RWR is that the antennas move with the control surfaces, which means that this will roll your RWR picture, just as when you are maneuvering the aicraft, the RWR picture will roll with it. This requires additional pilot skill to take RWR readings at the proper (level) moment in the maneuver in order to keep up an accurate SA as well as an eye to spot wrong readings in between.

And by roll I mean it will flip not only the bearing of your RWR contact, but will additionally produce erronous readings as mentioned by Grover above, for example the displacment out of the plane will move them to the 12,6,3,9 positions but also duplicate them, or in some cases even quadruple them, so that 1 single contact could be displayed on all 4 positions. it is very important thus to note the true heading vector to the target before breaking into a maneuver, too, or you might not know where and when a roll out for a new reading would be best (ideally a mix of offensive firing position, defensive crank or offset for evasive maneuvers and level for a new rwr reading).
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Last edited by IronMike; 10-22-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:12 AM   #5
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These absolute gold nuggets deserve their own thread. A shame to bury them in the bug section.
Thank you for this very in depth explanation IronMike.
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-Knock View Post
These absolute gold nuggets deserve their own thread. A shame to bury them in the bug section.
Thank you for this very in depth explanation IronMike.
I'll make a separate thread, and my pleasure ofc.
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Old 10-22-2019, 01:29 PM   #7
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Definitely ! This is amazing simulation ! And should be common knowledge, please make a sticky thread about it

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Old 10-23-2019, 03:10 AM   #8
Nansaram
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post

d) You'll receive launch warnings not only when you are the target of the missile. For example when flying in a close formation with your buddy; if an enemy launches a weapon such as AIM-7 or SA-6 at your buddy, you may receive a launch warning from that threat as well.
Thanks for detailed explain IronMike,
I do understand, when if I am in the closed formation and got wrong missile launch warning, But in my cases, I was apart 98.42nm from SAM site and more than 30 degree deviation with my wingman who locked. I got SAM lock and launch sound. I repeated this mission 3 times and always got wrong alarm.

As I know, RWR is not a weak Radar signal detector. It detect strong direct Radar signal and more stronger locking signal, not the reflected one. There is no reason to detect the reflected weak Radar signal and give wrong alarm to pilot.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:26 AM   #9
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I get the RWR simulation, appreciate it and even like it very much just would like to know more about its limitations. Was it really like that IRL - lock warnings while being away for 50nm from both SAM and real target plus more than 30 degrees from SAM to target LOS? Hard to imagine usefullness of such system in any situation involving more than a few aircraft/SAMs.


It's like in that joke:
- Why are we running away from this angry guy? We're 20 and he's alone!
- You never know who get hit first!


Does the whole squadrons in the whole AO turn away and RTB whenever one SAM or one enemy aircraft locks and lauch at someone?
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