FA-18 - take on on a F-14 Tomcat?

Hi,

Noob question here, but even though the Tomcat is an older aircraft, given it's faster speed plus and longer ranging AIM-54 Phoenix missiles - does the FA18 have a reasonable chance in challenging and defeating tomcats flown by reasonably skilled players)?

(I say this as a noob player who has been shot down a <cough> <cough> :cry:handful of times by a F14 player) and I'm trying to see if it's mostly me being clueless (I'm expecting is most likely) - or whether I'm being unrealistic and a FA-18 is the wrong tool for the trade in this instance.

Would love some pointers in the right direction for some techniques to practice if it is possible. :joystick:

A lot of tactics against the Tomcat result from knowing the pitfalls the AWG-9 suffers from and how to take advantage of it. There isn't ever going to be a 'one-size-fits-all' solution to air combat, it's all situational.

I'd recommend reading this to get more familiar with how the AWG-9 works:

https://flyandwire.com/2019/05/24/introduction-to-the-rio-seat-antenna-elevation-mlc-countering-notching-tws/

https://flyandwire.com/2019/10/18/awg-9-wcs-advanced-part-i/

https://flyandwire.com/2019/10/25/awg-9-wcs-advanced-part-ii/

in the current state of the game, competent f14 pilots are virtually unbeatable because they can launch on you from 20 miles, turn cold & run away while the magic phoenix INS hunts you down. your only chance is if they make a mistake, such as chasing you into mountainous terrain

however heatblur is in the process of updating the phoenix's guidance logic, so everything is subject to change

Taking a shot at 20 miles and then running away sounds boring. Could that be called a fight?

Taking a shot at 20 miles and then running away sounds boring. Could that be called a fight?

welcome to modern BVR..

Regards,

Snappy

Nothing modern about the Tomcat and the Phoenix. It was never made to fight other fighters. It's suits those who love airquake and killing as the only goal. Boring. It reminds me of those who hunt bears sitting in a tree over bait.

The real problem is... as we can launch at 20 miles... the tomcat launches those bloody phoenix's at 30+ miles and we can't do anything but evade the missile.

Of course the Hornet is at a disadvantage right now. It doesn't have a working ECM. We have a mid-2000's Hornet, so its ECM should be reasonably effective against the AWG-9, which was developed in the 60s. If ECM was modeled in a somewhat accurate way in DCS, at least, which is not.

As it is, it doesn't matter that we have a mid-2000's Hornet vs an 80s Tomcat, as all the sophisticated electronics that would help the Hornet IRL are not modeled in DCS. ECM is only noise jamming right now (or just an attribute flag in the game, really), which the AWG-9, with its high power output, should be able to burn through from quite a distance.

And of course there's this magic INS issue that's been a thing since forever, with the Phoenix even being able to track you through mountains.

So, since the technological advantage of the Hornet's sensors is negated by the above, your best bet is to rely on your newer weapons and deny the Tomcat efficient use of their own. Don't fight out in the open, try to use the terrain to your advantage against the and the RIO, use the limitations of the AWG-9 and notch it and get close enough to lob an AMRAAM or better yet, get closer for an AIM-9X shot, from a position they can't shot back at.

I know this sounds simplistic to some but... just notch it. Seriously AIM-54s are ridiculously easy to notch. Just pull the missile through your 3-9 line while dropping chaff. AIM-54s arent really anything more than a minor annoyance once you learn to evade them. Here are some videos I made for my squadron:

Also at 9:40 and at the beginning of this vid here is some cockpit footage of me notching AIM-54s:

And a small tip: in the F-15/16/18 RWRs, AIM-54s show up as a U for unknown, not an M so you cab tell them from say an AMRAAM or R-77

Nothing modern about the Tomcat and the Phoenix. It was never made to fight other fighters. It's suits those who love airquake and killing as the only goal. Boring. It reminds me of those who hunt bears sitting in a tree over bait.

First of all I wrote modern BVR , not modern Tomcat/Missile...if you want a „fight“ go WVR.

Do some reading before you put out baseless false statements like „It was never made to fight other fighters“..

Thats simply not true, neither for the aircraft, nor the missile (specifically the -C variant).

Just because it’s constantly repeated by clueless people doesn’t make the - its solely bomber interceptor rubbish- more true.

Regards,

Snappy

Oh no not the whole "iTs OnlY uSefUl aGaInST bOmBeRS" argument again :megalol:

First of all I wrote modern BVR , not modern Tomcat/Missile...if you want a „fight“ go WVR.

 

Do some reading before you put out baseless false statements like „It was never made to fight other fighters“..

 

Thats simply not true, neither for the aircraft, nor the missile (specifically the -C variant).

Just because it’s constantly repeated by clueless people doesn’t make the - its solely bomber interceptor rubbish- more true.

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

Not interested in arguing. You can have your way.

I know this sounds simplistic to some but... just notch it. Seriously AIM-54s are ridiculously easy to notch. Just pull the missile through your 3-9 line while dropping chaff. AIM-54s arent really anything more than a minor annoyance once you learn to evade them. Here are some videos I made for my squadron:

Essentially this!

And for God's sake, don't fly into it! Like that other guy in the F-14 section of the forums..... :music_whistling:

Taking a shot at 20 miles and then running away sounds boring. Could that be called a fight?

And I guess that's the difference between making a 'game' or a real world 'simulator'. One is designed to be enjoyable and a fair challenge. The other in real life designed for superiority and less risk.

Of course the Hornet is at a disadvantage right now. It doesn't have a working ECM. We have a mid-2000's Hornet, so its ECM should be reasonably effective against the AWG-9, which was developed in the 60s. If ECM was modeled in a somewhat accurate way in DCS, at least, which is not.

 

As it is, it doesn't matter that we have a mid-2000's Hornet vs an 80s Tomcat, as all the sophisticated electronics that would help the Hornet IRL are not modeled in DCS. ECM is only noise jamming right now (or just an attribute flag in the game, really), which the AWG-9, with its high power output, should be able to burn through from quite a distance.

 

And of course there's this magic INS issue that's been a thing since forever, with the Phoenix even being able to track you through mountains.

 

So, since the technological advantage of the Hornet's sensors is negated by the above, your best bet is to rely on your newer weapons and deny the Tomcat efficient use of their own. Don't fight out in the open, try to use the terrain to your advantage against the and the RIO, use the limitations of the AWG-9 and notch it and get close enough to lob an AMRAAM or better yet, get closer for an AIM-9X shot, from a position they can't shot back at.

Thanks. So if over the PG with nothing but water all around and a Tomcat is coming in hot - the only real option is to run for cover?

I know this sounds simplistic to some but... just notch it. Seriously AIM-54s are ridiculously easy to notch. Just pull the missile through your 3-9 line while dropping chaff. AIM-54s arent really anything more than a minor annoyance once you learn to evade them. Here are some videos I made for my squadron:

THANK YOU!

This is what I'm looking for. Actual tactics.

It looks like over the water the FA18 will be at more of a disadvantage - and adding to this - I've got to get below the horizon line of the missile.

It also appears as though I'm going to be mostly defensive, so would the technique to get the F14 to expel all it's missiles and dodge them - and then engage?

It also appears as though I'm going to be mostly defensive, so would the technique to get the F14 to expel all it's missiles and dodge them - and then engage?

in theory yes, in reality an experienced tomcat player would never place themselves in that situation. they would either continue pressing their advantage and use their superior energy state to run you down, or simply rtb winchester. at best you're fighting for a draw

the videos demonstrate how to dodge single phoenixes fired at long-rage (i.e. pot shots), which isn't difficult. the trick is in closing the gap and being able to fire your own missiles in kind

to make things even more challenging, the f-14 will routinely eat multiple amraams before being knocked out for good

in theory yes, in reality an experienced tomcat player would never place themselves in that situation. they would either continue pressing their advantage and use their superior energy state to run you down, or simply rtb winchester. at best you're fighting for a draw

 

 

the videos demonstrate how to dodge single phoenixes fired at long-rage (i.e. pot shots), which isn't difficult. the trick is in closing the gap and being able to fire your own missiles in kind

 

 

to make things even more challenging, the f-14 will routinely eat multiple amraams before being knocked out for good

That's what I was worried about. With the faster speed, and longer range missiles, and a mighty tough structure, it's not going to be a fair fight.

If the other player is AI - it's a joke and easy to kill. If it's a person - unless they're very inexperienced there seems to be no point going up against them and running is the best option. Either way - F14's will give no satisfaction.

Even with a 2 on 1 scenario (or even 3) - it seems the F14 can simply shoot and then buster.

At least I know now - on MP - stay right away from F14's - otherwise I'm only going to give myself frustration by trying to take on what is essentially an unbeatable foe, and better to know now than to continue trying in ignorance and losing passion for the game.

(Well, either that, or buy the F14 package and learn a whole new system). :music_whistling:

Thanks for the advise all!

yeah like you said, dcs is designed as a simulator, not a game. devs model weapon systems to match real life parameters and they leave the balancing to mission makers. unfortunately most MP servers aim for airquake-style gameplay that doesn't handle asymmetrical balancing well

- stay right away from F14's -

Just like the Iraqis in 1991.

Its not terribly hard to get in range, just sit in the notch till about 10nm (maybe a bit less if you are on the deck), and snap in to get a shot off. It can be off boresight, the main goal is to stop him from running you down, its not to kill him. He either is gonna try and notch your AMRAAMs (hard) or just run, in which case you can "pursue" him, though you are way slower. Practice vs AI first, then move to PvP

Its not terribly hard to get in range, just sit in the notch till about 10nm (maybe a bit less if you are on the deck), and snap in to get a shot off. It can be off boresight, the main goal is to stop him from running you down, its not to kill him. He either is gonna try and notch your AMRAAMs (hard) or just run, in which case you can "pursue" him, though you are way slower. Practice vs AI first, then move to PvP

No need to be modest about it mate, you are actually quite good. Well above the average DCS guy out there, even those that fly A-A almost exclusively. So yeah, if he had your skills, he could probably evade just as easy. I mean, from what i saw in your vids, you are just as good at evading 120's :D

As for getting in range, against the F-14 in a Bug, it's just not gonna happen, unless he is extremely cooperative. Fortunately, most guys online are. This what Air Quake is all about actually. But if decides to stay away from you, there is just nothing you can do. You are slower, have shorter legs, and shorter sticks. And if he's over ocean or flat terrain...... you might just park at the nearest diner, and wait for him to go home :smilewink:

As for the notching 120s part it kinda helps flying a plane with an RWR accurate to ±0.0000000001° :D

But youre right, a smart cat pilot isnt gonna try and press into your AMRAAM range, at which point its just endless notching AIM-54s whenever he recommits, until he runs out of AIM-54s then RTBs. At least you can stay alive :D. My statement was more for the scenario when the Cat decides to press sub 10-15nm, which in airquake they normally do, and are fairly easy do deal with especially when jester is involved.

And thanks for the compliment, though there are plenty of pilots better than me out there. Always room for improvement though :smilewink:.

 

And thanks for the compliment, though there are plenty of pilots better than me out there. Always room for improvement though :smilewink:.

My pleasure! Of course there's always room for improvement, but one should always give credit, where credit is due! :thumbup: