My two cents on F-16 Turn Rate and the EM Diagrams

The hornet does not outrate the viper (no pylons) in 2 circle and I have the tacview files to prove it.

Could you PM me and share?

Could you PM me and share?

PM sent.

PM sent.

I would love to see this as well and learn from it!

BR,

Deadpool

As far as dogfighting between the 16/18...atm, the Hornet will outturn the Viper. But stop trying to fight only a rate fight against the Hornet.

Not the case anymore. The Viper (minus pylons) can handily outrate the hornet in 2 circle now.

Good to know Low Blow...but u do know that if I get an 18 slightly above the limiter power curve I can just hit the pinky switch and pull so much lead cutting across the circle that I can go get a cup of coffee while I’m waiting for the 16 to show up on the other side...

Good to know Low Blow...but u do know that if I get an 18 slightly above the limiter power curve I can just hit the pinky switch and pull so much lead cutting across the circle that I can go get a cup of coffee while I’m waiting for the 16 to show up on the other side...

Is that why you didn't win Top Cat? Because you were getting a coffee?

All fights end up on the deck, Money, you should know that better than anyone. Can you cut across the bottom of the circle with your paddle once you're on the deck? I'd like to see it.

I feel like that comment may have been a little tongue in cheek regarding paddle switch? But in case it wasn't, for others who might take it seriouy, I was under the impression that the paddle switch is like the forbidden fruit IRL?... "Thou shalt not..." But in the sim it feels like people use it like it's a power boost or something...which I think stems from the fact that there's no risk involved and that becoming a test pilot in DCS has no bite, so.why not!? But really you don't use that as a normal practice. At least from how it was explained to me.

Someone mentioned the other day that certain Air Forces who only fly shore-based hornets pull the paddle, e.g. Swiss. No idea if that's accurate though.

Yeah, I don't know about those air forces either TBH. The guy who I talked to was USN. So perhaps it's just a Navy thing?

The hornet does not outrate the viper (no pylons) in 2 circle and I have the tacview files to prove it.

Sorry, but the measured load factors don't lie.

My survivability and fighting performance in DCS has drastically increased ever since I have stopped using that paddle switch and fly by the numbers instead. Only use it when I'm about to fly into the deck and on rare occasions for a cheeky AIM-9X launch.

I find this side of the forums an interesting perspective considering the 18 has underpowed engines and poor throttle response. I don't know about the rest of the general flight performance but the DCS 18 definitely doesn't match the military's 18c sim capabilities in terms of engine performance.

Sorry, but the measured load factors don't lie.

I'll say it again. Given pilots of equal BFM skill, the hornet is no longer capable of dominating in the two circle fight on the deck against the viper. A correctly-flown viper now rates around on the hornet. PM sent.

I'll say it again. Given pilots of equal BFM skill, the hornet is no longer capable of winning a two circle fight on the deck against the Viper. PM sent.

Saw it, and like I said in the PM, the Hornet pilot wasn't even approaching is best STR.

And like I also said, I'll gladly demonstrate it in 1 vs 1's if you so wish.

Demonstrate away. I've sent you my discord.

Demonstrate away. I've sent you my discord.

Copy that, applied.

Low Blow...

First off, Top Cat was Tomcat and the event and plane has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why would you even bring that up? Secondly, at the start of our match, which you were RIO and not pilot, I had some serious RL shit going on that was taking a major chunk of my attention.

Didnt bother mentioning that then, it wouldnt have looked good on my part or as a representative of the 104th to complain although my RIO and squadron leader was well aware of the situation in real time, so I took the L like a man, and gave Ray his due credit in the after interview.

I'd be happy to have a friendly rematch any time to give a much more accurate representation of my skill level without the distractions...

As far as on the deck Viper vs. Hornet, PM me and host up a mission and I'll be happy to demonstrate it to you.

 

As far as on the deck Viper vs. Hornet, PM me and host up a mission and I'll be happy to demonstrate it to you.

No need, we just did a good amount of flights together where he saw the Hornets noticably superior turn performance compared with the Viper in DCS, and he was a good sport and quickly acknowledged it as well.

Low Blow...

 

First off, Top Cat was Tomcat and the event and plane has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why would you even bring that up? Secondly, at the start of our match, which you were RIO and not pilot, I had some serious RL shit going on that was taking a major chunk of my attention.

 

Didnt bother mentioning that then, it wouldnt have looked good on my part or as a representative of the 104th to complain although my RIO and squadron leader was well aware of the situation in real time, so I took the L like a man, and gave Ray his due credit in the after interview.

 

I'd be happy to have a friendly rematch any time to give a much more accurate representation of my skill level without the distractions...

 

As far as on the deck Viper vs. Hornet, PM me and host up a mission and I'll be happy to demonstrate it to you.

Money, oh right, well glad to hear you are better. My comment was meant as a joke in regard to your coffee comment but clearly hit a raw nerve. Are you ok man?

As HB said above, he showed me what he was referring to regarding the hornet. Point well made, I've been flying against hornet pilots who perhaps aren't as good as HB. But sure I am always up for some friendly merges.

Sorry again if I offended you with the Top Cat comment.

Low Blow...

 

First off, Top Cat was Tomcat and the event and plane has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why would you even bring that up? Secondly, at the start of our match, which you were RIO and not pilot, I had some serious RL shit going on that was taking a major chunk of my attention.

 

Didnt bother mentioning that then, it wouldnt have looked good on my part or as a representative of the 104th to complain although my RIO and squadron leader was well aware of the situation in real time, so I took the L like a man, and gave Ray his due credit in the after interview.

 

I'd be happy to have a friendly rematch any time to give a much more accurate representation of my skill level without the distractions...

 

As far as on the deck Viper vs. Hornet, PM me and host up a mission and I'll be happy to demonstrate it to you.

Nobody can understand you. Please do not bring your personal stuff in a discussion about Viper BFM... You can always argue in reddit

Nobody can understand you. Please do not bring your personal stuff in a discussion about Viper BFM... You can always argue in reddit

Panda, he was right to get upset. My comment was insensitive. It's all sorted now.

LB

My reply copied from the other, similar post:

Hey Low Blow,

But I would argue, as you and I discussed the other day, pulling the paddle is a bit of an artificial advantage, regardless of how one feels about the gamey aspect of it.

All the EM diagrams for the hornet, all the flight testing, and indeed all the SME input will be predicated on the 7.5G limit, as the paddle wasn’t pulled in real life BFM practice, and again all the EM charts use 7.5G as the limit.

Anything above 7.5G and we are into untested territory. Perhaps the real hornet truly would have outrated the viper at 9G, but there’s no way to substantiate this as there is no data on that regime of flight to verify. (I’m happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide said data)

It’s the same as the flaps down argument for the Tomcat. In game, until HB made changes, the tomcat in flaps down config (way above Vfe of course) would rate around like a beast. But again, no one could verify if it was accurate because there was no SME or flight test data on what was ultimately an unauthorized manoeuvre.

As you and I have shown, a realistically flown Hornet at the 7.5G limit can be outrated by a viper, albeit not massively.

 

But I would argue, as you and I discussed the other day, pulling the paddle is a bit of an artificial advantage, regardless of how one feels about the gamey aspect of it.

 

All the EM diagrams for the hornet, all the flight testing, and indeed all the SME input will be predicated on the 7.5G limit, as the paddle wasn’t pulled in real life BFM practice, and again all the EM charts use 7.5G as the limit.

 

Anything above 7.5G and we are into untested territory. Perhaps the real hornet truly would have outrated the viper at 9G, but there’s no way to substantiate this as there is no data on that regime of flight to verify. (I’m happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide said data)

 

It’s the same as the flaps down argument for the Tomcat. In game, until HB made changes, the tomcat in flaps down config (way above Vfe of course) would rate around like a beast. But again, no one could verify if it was accurate because there was no SME or flight test data on what was ultimately an unauthorized manoeuvre.

Hi sandman.

There were 9g tests with the legacy hornet. And at least swiss hornets do have a 9g-limit.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/789771

https://www.milavia.net/airshows/display-teams/swiss-hornet-display/#img/4

And there are charts for the f-18c showing a 9g limit.

http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=fighter-performance-mission-analysis

Cheers

Hi sandman.

There were 9g tests with the legacy hornet. And at least swiss hornets do have a 9g-limit.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/789771

https://www.milavia.net/airshows/display-teams/swiss-hornet-display/#img/4

 

And there are charts for the f-18c showing a 9g limit.

http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=fighter-performance-mission-analysis

 

Cheers

Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.

Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

 

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.

We can actually find out by simply looking at the F-16 performance charts and see which one matches the figures on that diagram. Specifically, at what altitude and configuration does the F-16C achieve a peak of 3.2 & 4 G's sustained, and 8.2 & 9 G instantaneous.

The diagram that most closely matches this turns out to be the one for 26,000 lbs DI = 50 @ 30,000 ft, where the F-16 hits 3.2 G sustained at @ M 0.8 and 4 G sustained @ M 1.4, where'as 8.2 G instantaneous is hit @ M 1.18 and 9 G @ M 1.73.

Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

 

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.

Yes, the structure is reinforced and there are changes in the software. Lifetime is shorter too.

I agree with hb, it is probably 30kft. If you search that homepage, you will even find the figures on the axes.

The above ALR chart, shows for Hornet epe, most probably in gao config (60% fuel, 2a9+2a120, 33325lbs) bstr= ~7.4dgs.

My Dcs F18 str test in that config, 58%fuel, 33325lbs = 7.3dgs