TrackIR or VR?

One thing that is a bit annoying is when in VR trying to turn and select a switch with the mouse sometimes is a bigger challenge than it needs to be. Like trying to set ILS freq and stuff over in that area. if your not leaning in far enough the mouse point only moves so far and at some point you have to lean more to get the mouse to be able to reach the switch/dial etc...

 

Any tips you VR PROs have for that is much appriciated

Start using Oculus Touch Controllers. Far more easier than any mouse or voice software. You grab the knob and rotate it. You click the trigger as left click. BUT!!!!! ED has not implemented right click at all! So you need to actually bind right click to HOTAS.

The next best thing would be a VR glove (like what Oculus has presented) and then a ultimatum would be a hand tracking so you could just move hand in front of you and get it correctly tracked (requires a external sensor to see fingers correctly).

One of the problems with the VR is that you can't easily look downward. In reality your eye balls move and you have very big FOV down when you just little turn head downward. But with VR, you are limited to operate well at the throttle level. All after that becomes more difficult as you need more and more turn head and move upper body to see.

But that is partially fixed with the touch controllers as you can more easily move cursor on wanted position and it doesn't move if you move head, it moves only if you move controller.

You seem to forgot that real pilots can simply use their hands. The way you currently have to operate switches in VR using cursor and mouse/head or controllers has nothing to do with realism.

42:25 forward if that doesn't work...

(And talk about experience of such basic CM.......!!!)

The cockpits are fairly heavy workload depending what part you need to operate. Like with helicopter you need to have your right hand on cyclic almost all the time, in KA-50 you can let go for long periods even and operate the right side. But then you can think emergency situations like how your fire control buttons are on top right panel, that you need to reach those with your left hand as you need to fly it by your right hand!

The front panel is just easiest place to reach with left hand. It is like signaling in a car.

But we do not have any G-forces affecting us. Like we can literally be pushing buttons and adjusting all settings while pulling high G etc. Why HOTAS was huge thing as you can't move your arms at all so easily when at higher G forces. And in combat you shouldn't twiddle settings etc.

What makes all mouse throwers etc more like "super pilots", same way as TrackIR makes "super pilots" as they can so easily look straight rear if so wanted!

And that all makes DCS very unrealistic as virtual pilots has no G forces, they are not strapped to seat so they don't fall when they roll around or fly inverted etc. They don't have limitations of the controls etc.

VR is like pulling a stocking over your head, followed by a balaclava. I mean, I get it, I’ve tried DCS with my rift. The immersion of sitting in the cockpit is brilliant, but in a practical sense, it’s slow and bloody awful. Physical buttons are useless beyond your hotas, it’s energy sapping and eye strain inducing, and then there’s the resolution - beyond a few hundred metres the value of depth is lost, as it is in real life, and instead you are left looking at a pixelated smudge of a horizon. I’ll take my 3440x1440 gsync monitor any day of the week. However ask me again in a few years, as I think I’ll come around ;)

The true testament for what kind impact VR does, is to put a total newbie to cockpit with VR and guide him through just by talking the checklist for starting the aircraft and then get up in the air (after little training for flying in level etc) and talk through the weapons management etc.

If a newbie can do that without problem to find buttons, switches, read labels, spot enemies etc, then VR is great for combat flying and learning to operate the aircraft.

But what happens? People with normal/great vision will have difficulties to read labels. Difficulties to find the targets. Difficulties to even see the buttons and switches (even when their VR is in their sweet spot etc). They lean forward, they experience like they have lost their vision, they get frustrated as they just can't see what you can see on monitor, and even on monitor it is seriously low resolution compared what you can get without VR.

And it all is very much dependent from the aircraft and the instruments and lighting etc. Like Harrier has one of the best HUDS (if not THE best) for VR. The L-39 and C-101 has best ILS etc instruments. Su-27/33 and Mi-8 has best cockpit colors (that blue to lower eye strain) for clarity (over black/gray etc) in all kind lighting conditions. Su-25A has that extremely good gunsight with the orange cross by how thin it is and how clear it is.

If the current (5-6th generation) VR is "great", then nothing better would be needed! Period!

While I can agree totally that VR totally gives the immersion and allows you to "get in" to cockpit and flying etc. It is not good at the moment. It is barely acceptable or it is poor. It is playable and can be enjoyable (if you get wow factors for the immersion of flying) but it is nothing what the future will be in next 2 generations. The HTC Vive Pro was (IMHO) weak update (it is same as Samsung Odyssey) but still such. But once one get to fly with PIMAX 8K and see that clarity and resolution (even when serious frame drops), it gives the hint what the VR should be. PIMAX 8K X running with stable 45/90 FPS all maxed out (with 6 DOF movement etc) and we can start talking how VR is great for flight simulators!

Now one can take the Doom (1993!) and it will look good on VR! Even when it is so pixelated and so low polygon game with sprite graphics! It has amazing immersion to be there! But no where near it is level of the latest FPS shooters with all graphics maxed out!

The VR is such that playing like Serious Sam First Encounter looks amazing! Far Cry (2001) would look amazing too!

But throw a complex polygon object, like DCS aircraft cockpits are, and it falls apart as too much tiny details that are lost even at high 1.8 values etc.

[YOUTUBE]

And that all makes DCS very unrealistic as virtual pilots has no G forces, they are not strapped to seat so they don't fall when they roll around or fly inverted etc. They don't have limitations of the controls etc.

No s*&$! I didn't know G-forces were missing. I thought DCS was 100% realistic. :huh:

TIf the current (5-6th generation) VR is "great", then nothing better would be needed! Period!

While I can agree totally that VR totally gives the immersion and allows you to "get in" to cockpit and flying etc. It is not good at the moment. It is barely acceptable or it is poor. It is playable and can be enjoyable (if you get wow factors for the immersion of flying) but it is nothing what the future will be in next 2 generations.

Lol well one could say that about any generational product.

Started gaming with my Rift in Jan 2017, have not gamed on a monitor since.

But yeah, I too look forward to future generations!

After all without all of us supporting this generation, there would not be future ones...

TrackIR is great for high resolution tracking of an incoming bandit closing at over 800 knots. My Vive is great for helicopter flying and increasing immersion. I have both and love both devices. Ease of use if you just want to relax after work I use my TrackIR. Vive improves my helicopter flying experience 200%

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TrackIR is great for high resolution tracking of an incoming bandit closing at over 800 knots. My Vive is great for helicopter flying and increasing immersion. I have both and love both devices. Ease of use if you just want to relax after work I use my TrackIR. Vive improves my helicopter flying experience 200%

 

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If you have the money, the correct answer is "both". VR is simply amazing, but TrackIR with hi-res graphics is also amazing. No need to make a choice if you have the cash for both.

If you have the money, the correct answer is "both". VR is simply amazing, but TrackIR with hi-res graphics is also amazing. No need to make a choice if you have the cash for both.

So it is like 10% what a VR requires to get a DCS look good.

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I haven't used my trackir since I got my rift and will probably never use it again.

I actually find it hard to fly without the rift now.

I have owned trakir for 13 or more years and I love it

I got a rift last summer and returned it after about 10 days, it great for 3D effect

but not so great at spotting targets (ground and air), I will wait for next generation

I have owned trakir for 13 or more years and I love it

 

I got a rift last summer and returned it after about 10 days, it great for 3D effect

but not so great at spotting targets (ground and air), I will wait for next generation

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Yes... I hear this a lot from the A/A fighter jocks. The people who are truly critical say wait until VR can do 1080P clearly. They are also addicted to being able to zoom the external world while using TrackIR.

 

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You can Zoom in VR too which rather nullifies this waiting argument. Don’t know why anyone would bother with the drone station way of flying.

You can Zoom in VR too which rather nullifies this waiting argument. Don’t know why anyone would bother with the drone station way of flying.

So why bother with such limitations in vision today, when it can be fixed in few years?

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

I have both but only use the Track IR anymore for BMS as there is no support for VR. That being said, I haven't flown BMS more than 5 times since I got the Rift 3 months ago. There simply is no comparison. Do you want to see your room around you when flying or the cockpit and the virtual world only? Apart from motion the immersion is complete. The visual cues are true to life when flying formation, overhead breaks, turning on final, dogfighting and everything else. You're in the damn jet! It's freaking amazing.

I'm fortunate to have a system that is able to max out the quality settings on the Rift and the only visual issues I have are with TGP and Mav displays on occasion. On a laptop you will have to lower the settings but I'm guessing that if you're using it while on TDY, you can't take a large monitor with you conveniently. Therefore, you're probably flying so, so quality anyway. If your laptop can push medium quality on the Rift and it doesn't break the bank, you're doing yourself a disservice by not getting one.

To sum up, would you rather be in the real world looking into the virtual world? Or leave the real world completely and hop into the DCS World for a few hours at a time?

VR is more like drone station, as you can't see as clearly as in reality, and displays project more that reality to be able see around.

 

So why bother with such limitations in vision today, when it can be fixed in few years?

 

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No it definitely isn't. I'm starting to think you have some sort of psychological issue with even the mention of VR in a positive light as you seem to always seem to need to pile in with ridiculous criticisms.

I used monitors and TrackIR years ago but now I've moved on to something x100 better, imo.

No it definitely isn't. I'm starting to think you have some sort of psychological issue with even the mention of VR in a positive light as you seem to always seem to need to pile in with ridiculous criticisms.

 

I used monitors and TrackIR years ago but now I've moved on to something x100 better, imo.

You just push how everything is perfect and dancing on roses etc etc. Without any realism what VR is today and you can't withstand any pointing out flaws in VR with current gen gear.

How many needs to point out that current Rift and Vive just has its serious downsides?

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I've flown Falcon since 2000. I flew LOMAC when it came out in 2005. Back then all views were managed with the trim hat as I didn't have a TIR at the time. (can't remember if they were even out) Guess what, I was totally cool with it and enjoyed flying that way as it was all that was available. Fast forward a few years later and I was using TIR and totally happy with it for the time. Fast forward to now and I am completely blown away by the difference in how I fly and see the sim compared to the TIR and switching with trim hat. As I've stated, I AM IN THE ****ING JET. Everything around me is the jet and wherever I happen to be in the Balkans at the time. I do NOT SEE MY MAN CAVE IN KEMAH TX. I AM IN THE BALKANS. I have visual cues that tell my brain to tell my stomach and sometimes the ole sphincter that I'm heading towards the ground at .85 Mach and I better pull up before I lawn dart! Looking at a monitor DOES NOT GIVE YOU THAT. I don't care how high you run your settings on the the highest end monitor, YOU ARE STILL LOOKING AT A MONITOR.

My system specs allow me to run DCS at 1.8PD which is pretty much as high as you can go and still see a little improvement from 1.7PD. I fly exclusively online on CO-OP servers because I'm not into AIR QUAKE. The only visual issues I sometimes run into is reading some gauges or seeing ground targets though TGP or Mav's and that is due to the cockpit module and NOT THE RIFT. This is true with the Marage2000C and Harrier but it's in no way bad enough to kill my immersion. I just have to lean forward most of the time which is EXACTLY WHAT REAL PILOTS DO.

As to spotting. How far are we talking about? 10 miles? 5 miles? 3, 2 or 1? As I've not flown DCS more than maybe 20 times on a monitor at 3840 x 2160 or 1920 x 1080 (to learn the modules)so I don't know what distances people are usually able to spot targets using zoom. I do know I can pick out a target at 3 miles if I catch a flash or look where my RWR says it is. Beyond that not really. But anything beyond that isn't super realistic either. What it does, is make you use your instruments such as RWR, RADAR and AWACS to get clearer idea of where to look. EXACTLY WHAT REAL PILOTS DO.

As the previous poster said, in not exactly the same way, I believe you're giving extremely short shrift to at least the Rift. The OP was asking if the Rift would make a good portable rig to travel with as opposed to a monitor and TIR. The simple answer is yes, if he has the power to run it on his laptop. The Rift basically comes with its own travel case lol. I am curious though..... Do you work for Natural Point? Inquiring minds want to know! ;)

VR is cool and immersive, but the resolution is just too low for many situations. No amount of anti-aliasing can make the current resolution look anywhere near as good as 1080p... and 4K is off the charts. I toggle back and forth depending on what I am doing.

IMO the quality of VR resolution is not high enough to warrant the $500-800 price tag for oculus / vive.

However at $200-300 for a Windows Mixed Reality head set (Lenovo $199 atm with controllers) that is worth it just to experience it. I mean I payed more than $199 for a TrackIR unit back in the day.

Go VR I liked it so much more than ir track works so much better pluse you get the view with out 5-6 monitors. While it’s still in its infancy and is free or troubles its much better than 2-d monitors

How do you do that?

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

How do you do that?

It's a setting in the UI layer menu.

I took my trackIR off and put my Vive back on to test the VR zoom. It was tremendous. I just fell in love again with my VIVE. Can ya'll say F-15 with VR zoom ftw!

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VR does have shortfalls. And every one of them people put up with. You can't go back. If you can't see it, you would rather just play different modules or in different ways. I haven't PvP'd for a year. I've given up chasing pixels on the screen. I will likely keep with modules that are more BVR related.

In some ways, VR has ruined DCS for me.

Toggling back and forth is painful. Once I get used to one way of doing business, it hurts to see the flaws of the other and have to adapt.

With Oculus Rift, the tracking is simply superior to TrackIR by an order of magnitude... unlike TrackIR, it doesn't lose track. Combine 1:1 tracking with stereo vision and a huge problem disappears: losing track of contacts when they are obscured by the canopy frame. 1) I can easily move my head in a way that the frame doesn't block them at all without losing track, or 2) stereo vision generally allows one eye to keep seeing the contact, so I almost never need to move my head.

But for all the immersion and fun of VR, just one minute of full visual quality with the effects of high resolution, maxed out FSAA, AF, etc. makes the visual quality of VR look like an ATARI 2600 system. 1080p has never been good enough for me. I have yet to go to 4K. I can't wait to see a 4K image on a 60-inch display presumably with a gpu card that can fully support it with 60 fps or better and maxed out quality settings.

VR has to support 4x 2d resolution to have its wide field of view and stereo 3d right/left eye imaging. It could be a few years before we ever see a gpu that can support that much resolution at an affordable price. Likewise, it could be a few years before the VR headsets have displays that support that resolution at an affordable price.